Jeff Ornstein 0:02

Today's guest is Estes Tarver, an award-winning actor, director, writer, producer, and voice artist with more than 25 years in the entertainment industry. He is the founder and artistic director of Moonlight Arts and Entertainment and has appeared in projects including Outer Banks, Mayor of Kingston, Mr. Mercedes, Under the Dome, and House of Cards. Estes also wrote, directed, and produced and starred in the award-winning feature film Changeover, now streaming on Amazon. Besides his own work, he coaches actors and has served as a creative advisor for the Sundance Film Festival Feature Film Lab. Estes, welcome. Thank you. Good to be here. That's a mouthful in terms of an introduction. You have been very busy. So I want to kind of just jump right into it. It's not uncommon that folks start as directors and then they feel, oh, there's a role I want to play, but it doesn't exist. So I'm going to write it. They become writers. And oftentimes after they've got a couple of projects under their belt, they get a yearning to be behind the lens and be a director. What was your journey there? How did that all develop for you?

Estes Tarver 1:13

Oh, that's a that's a good question. I was a late starting actor. I think I took my first acting class for my last semester of college. I was pre-med psych with four of us studying my brains out. And I realized from this class, oh my gosh, this is what I want to do. And I realized I think I just wanted to be on ER. I didn't really want to be a doc. Which also dates me a little. And so, but I started knocking around and I didn't know anybody in the business. So I was in Tennessee at the time, and I started trying to find wherever I could acting stuff. And then as I trained more and more, and I started to find things in the butt started doing country music videos out of Nashville, and I was doing things like that and some theater and kind of a little bit of everything. And then I went to LA after I got some work and was there for a couple of years. And I really learned while I was in LA, because I had been uh actually, believe it or not, I was tennis, I played through college playing tennis, and I was one of my day jobs was teaching tennis, and I was doing mostly that and bartending while I was running around LA trying to piece together some kind of acting career. And as an athlete, I really was like, man, I used to do this six days a week. I played tennis six days a week. That's how I got really good. And so it made me want to go find a way to do that, which for me was grad school. So I went and got my master's at Carolina in acting, and I was really lucky. I hit them at a time when they had it was like a lot of old Yale faculty had come down there and was teaching old mine in terms of who was there. I had read about them all, and I really wanted to lucky enough to get in there because they take eight people. So I had auditioned for about, I don't know, 13 programs, 15 programs, and I got into two of them. And then I went to Carolina, and after I got my master's, I got agents in New York, and I went up to New York and was doing well, but I'm so not someone who waits well. So while I'm like, I'm having good things happen, I'm booking some plays and soaps, but for me, the six months in between these things or four months in between, or whatever the action business is, I always tell my students and people think about a week in any other business is six months in the entertainment business in terms of waitings. So I'm like, you're gonna be waiting. So what are you doing while you're waiting? And basically, that was around 2010 when I was really realizing all that and why I was frustrated, and I was like, digital was really starting to blow up, and I was like, I'm gonna go start making stuff. And for me, it wasn't about a certain role. I I'm like, I'll play anything, I just love to act. So I was like, what movie could I make in North Carolina that I would sort of pick that location for? What kind of movie? I also had a lot of students after a couple of years, and I had a couple of students that were doing amazing work. So I was like, I'm gonna cast them, they've been training their butts off. What am I writing? And I kind of a backwards engineer writing. To me, it's sort of the Mark DuPlass model. He talks about what are your locations? He wrote a film that got into Sunday, and it's called The Puffy Chair, and he wrote it because he had a puffy chair, and he was like, What can I do with this? So changeover was really, I had this great student that was like, she was like my niece. I had coached her for a long time, and I literally was like, Let's what is this story? And then I wrote it based on a handful of things. I also dealt with a lot of clinical depression in my 20s, so it was hereditary. And so as I had worked through all of that and then had all these other elements, this story came together. I was really excited about the story, not as much worried about what I was playing, but I was like, I'm gonna play this uncle who takes care of this kid. And the premise of the movie is her parents die, and she has to go live with her uncle, who's a single dad with an eight-year-old. And so that's what the setup is. So it was also very character-driven. No car chases, no big budget things I need. Let's make a story that we can shoot. And then we raised about 45,000, and I put in about 15 by the end of it with promotion and stuff, and nine festivals and things like that. But the story came out of all of that, and I had literally left New York saying, okay, I want to try to have made a feature within five years of being in North Carolina. And what was so crazy was Atlanta also exploded and North Carolina at the time with work. So I started getting a lot of television because I was in the Southeast, which totally surprised me because I had been in New York and I was getting things, but it's a much more saturated market. And all of a sudden, the Southeast needs actors. And it's like, wait, this guy has training, put him in the small pile. And so I was getting looks at things that I wasn't getting looks at in New York for a while, and now it's pretty saturated in the Southeast now, but it's still a great market. It's mature over the last kind of 14 years. But anyway, so the movie came out of kind of all of that stuff, and I made it in three years. I've been down there three years, and it was shot by 2013. I think we went through the post, it took a year, and then we got it into we started entering it in festivals, and I had to learn that game, which is a whole nother game. And then it started to actually get in a lot of stuff a year later, and so and then it won some best pitchers. Then I got a distributor that's out of LA, and then and now it's on, I think it's on about four streaming platforms now, but it's been it's honestly been trending in the last year, which is crazy because it's done a little bit of this, and now, like in the last year, it's really been probably some of the most views it's had, which is kind of great.

Jeff Ornstein 6:42

Well, it's awesome. I mean, from what I've seen of it, you have a great connection with the actress playing your niece. It's a powerful premise. Clearly, the festival circuit loved it because I there were so many laurels on the poster. I had to keep making it bigger because they were so small too in order to read what it was. So congratulations. And also, first time out of the gate for your first project to do so amazing and well, be so well received, must have made you feel over the moon. And I want to keep doing this. I mean, I don't think you need any encouragement to keep doing it. Clearly, you want to keep doing it.

Estes Tarver 7:12

You have to, it's a grind. Making movies is hard work, so you're right. It's it takes a little what you say, I think has a lot of truth to it, is in terms of you got to gear up for another one if you're gonna do it. I did so many jobs on that one that I'm like, I don't know that I could do that many jobs again at the same time. But it's like you're writing, you act and you're directing, and it's I wouldn't change a thing about it. It was such a great process, and I learned so much. But at the same time, I've also learned as a director or an actor, like whichever hat I'm wearing, if I want to enjoy it, it's easy to overload it if you're doing all those jobs and go, Yeah, I've got to do them all. And then you get done and go, Well, we got it done, and I think it was good, but and I didn't really get to stop and drink coffee with an actor or or enjoy any of the, you know, so I've learned like how I do it adapts, I guess.

Jeff Ornstein 7:59

So it now there are people who believe that the film festivals, first of all, it's a great honor just to get into one, let alone then be given a distinguishing award for a particular facet of it, but they don't necessarily translate into distribution, which yours did. So I mean, that's an accomplishment also on top of an accomplishment on top of an accomplishment. Did you find that you had new relationships developed from the film festival circuit?

Estes Tarver 8:30

Yes, in small places, like what you're saying is I think 100% true, is like really most of the time, distribution situations don't because there's so many festivals now. And I think for filmmakers, it's really good to look at a festival and say, okay, it's a festival. Is it also a good event? Do they know how to put on a good event, or are they just cranking out a festival, getting entry fees, and screening all these movies without saying, hey, how do we make this an event that's gonna be fun for people to attend? Do promote the filmmakers? Can we get distributors to this thing and have the filmmakers get to meet them? If they're not doing all those things, I think festivals can be a tough thing because they are all getting more entries than they have room for by a ton. And then also, I really learned that game. I had submitted to us a ton of stuff and not heard a peep, and I got a rep. And the rep was expensive. I did it for basically a year, but the rep was great, and the rep told me the game. And she said, look, I've heard Rebecca Luisa Smith, she's called the Film Festival Doctor. That's her business real. Yeah. But she said, Hey, look, here's how programming works at festivals. They look at this first, then they look at this, then they look at this, then they look at these entries. And it's like, if you're just entering on your own, you might be down. They've already got 95% of their content when they're looking at the entries. So she said, they call me, or if I send them something and I have a relationship, they know, hey, this came from Rebecca, let's give it a watch. But I really learned, I also, some of them will say we screen every entry, and I go, maybe, because I did the math on how many screeners they would need with the number of entries they had over, say, four months. And I was like, they need three screeners, and all that communication's got to be tough. So I kind of went, okay, I think I need to try this. And when I did, it was amazing. The minute I started with her, she said, Hey, because I had to pay her a retainer, and she goes, You're gonna hate me because I know you just made a movie, so you're probably broke. And she goes, but I want you to enter it here tonight. The entry fee is a hundred bucks, send it to World Fest Houston. I did, it got in, and then it won the Houston Film Critics, gave me best actor. It won a platinum remi and all it did amazing at the festival. And what's so funny is I don't know that it would have gotten seen had I not entered it the right way.

Jeff Ornstein 10:57

Right, right. So tell me this. I mean, that has a very human, the tale is very human and it's very personal. And the way, by the way, it's filmed, really, is almost like the cinematography of it is almost another character in the film. It's so beautiful. Are those the kinds of stories that interest you the most to tell? Or they are. So it's small cast, intimate story.

Estes Tarver 11:21

Yeah, well, it doesn't necessarily have to be all those things, but I what I would say is that's actually something that one of my producers that I work with, I just sent them a feature that I'm starting to pitch and stuff. And and she said, when I read these things, it's like I get a little life lesson when I read them. And I was like, Ah, I'm so glad to hear that. Because why I got into acting in the first place was because I would watch my favorite things and go, man, I feel like I I learned something about life through the lens of this person that, or I connected to something that I go through that makes me feel a little less alone as a person on the planet struggling in their 20s or whatever. But so for me, the movies that stand out the most, the stories that stand out the most for me are the ones where I go, hey, this watching this teaches me something about life in some way where I think has value for all of us. So those are the stories that I pick.

Jeff Ornstein 12:19

Right. So okay, that makes a lot of sense. And it kind of ties to the lead to good leading to my next question, which was well, let's see, the way the producers described it, it said your work being deeply rooted in human resilience and transformation, and your journey feels like a slow burn instead of an overnight success. So you're like a slow, steady, self-aware, it's all coming together as it's going to come together. And some people don't have the patience for that for our industry, or they're easily discouraged. I mean, were you able to deal with rejection and disappointment easily, or did that impact you? Or it doesn't seem like it slowed you down any.

Estes Tarver 12:56

No, but it's a great man. That's a great way to say that. I always tell this story a lot. Do you know who Harris Ewin is? He was the guy on Ozark who was like with the heart machines, the roommate. He's been in Ghostbusters 2. He was the judge at the beginning. He was in training day. He was one of the guys, he tells the story about the chunky gif with Denzel. This guy's been acting forever. And he came to my grad school when I was training and said, Hey, look, for some people, this happens quick. For most people, it's a 20-year journey if you can with it that long. Because he said, For me, it was a 20-year journey. I can tell you a lot of my friends, we started really working after we'd been going for 20 years. And he goes, and he said, So if you can find anything else that makes you happy, go do it. And if not, you're an actor.

Jeff Ornstein 13:47

And I was literally sitting there reiterated by other people that like yourself, seasoned person in the industry, and it seems like never a truer word was spoken. So bring that brings me to your other really intense endeavor, which is Moonlight Arts and Entertainment. So that ties to your mentorship and helping forming young actors develop their sense of awareness and their craft. Do you find that the students you're teaching, do you think that because I have a lot of young people come through my office at my day job, and I've noticed a seismic shift in the approach to life over the last 40 years that I've had my business. How where are your students on the spectrum? Are they impatient? Are you able to break through and say this is a what's the word? A marathon, not a sprint, and you got to be patient. How are they dealing with it all?

Estes Tarver 14:41

Oh my gosh, these are great questions. I this is stuff that I talk about all the time. The biggest thing that I try to instill in them is the realities of the business, because I say, look, I could tell you you might hit it tomorrow, you might hit it in 10 years or 20 years. The biggest thing I can prepare you for is to show you what it's really like so that you have a realistic understanding of what you'll get into. And the first thing is so many people now, it's so easy to get on camera now. Whereas when I was coming up, when we were coming up, it was so hard to get on camera. You had to have connections and training and all the things lined up to even be filmed in anything. And now you can turn your phone on and film yourself. And it's like what that in some ways has led to, which is I think what you're talking about, is a little bit of like, I want to be in a movie. Can we do that tomorrow? And you go, have you trained at acting? Are you a good actor? Have you worked at that skill? And if you haven't, that's what I would recommend first. And some of that will be on camera. But I used to say to I'll have an actor get a big audition for the first time, and they'll be so excited. And I'm like, look, I love the excitement. And I I'll coach them, we'll crush a tape. They'll do a really good tape. They know it's a good tape. And now they're even more excited to book it. And I go, look, here's the deal. If you get down to the last 10 actors for this part, they're all going to have amazing tapes. And it's going to be about which flavor the producers and the directors want. And so if you're down to the last 10, you now have a 10% chance of booking the part. And then I'll say, now I know that sounds terrible, but what I'm preparing you for is to say, so go get 10 callbacks and you might hit one. And then your odds of getting the next one get better as your resume grows. And so that's what I try to instill in their brains. Doesn't always work.

Jeff Ornstein 16:31

It's interesting because a very close friend of mine is a very successful booking coach. So in Los Angeles, and she's known on both coasts. I mean, she's got a great program, seminars, everything, blah, blah, blah. She's very skilled. And she said to me, They'll call a hundred people in for a audition for a role. 90 of them will suck. So that leaves 10. And if you're one of the 10, you're good. Okay. So the question is do you have the ward on your nose the way the director wanted the character to appear? It's very similar to what you're saying. That's exactly right. Exactly what I'm saying. Right. Then you're good. You can't then if you don't get it, it could be something completely out of your control and have nothing to do with the your performance and how you read on the character, anything. Could you whatever the way you wore parted your hair that day. So interestingly, I also understand you've had what you've described as a couple of big near misses in Hollywood. Now, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I mean, did that set you back a bit? How did you deal with that?

Estes Tarver 17:32

I had one that was a lead in a film opposite an A-lister. And I found out on the day before they were gonna cast it that it was down to two guys. And well, actually, I found out the day they cast it, my agent said the other guy got it. And I said, the one other guy? And she goes, Yeah. And I said, What happened? And she said, Well, she said they had two scripts, and if it goes this way, it's a lead role and you're booking it. And if it goes this way, and that there was another A-lister in the movie that wanted the story to center around their character, and it was initially the two guys in a girl movie, and this other actor wanted it to be about this guy, and so when he made that, I will do it otherwise. The script where I was gonna play the lead went to the shelf, and the part went down to one scene where the guy was like a jerk and it they wanted a different look. And I was like 25 and blue-eyed, and so I would look like a nice guy, and that's why it worked as a lead because it's hard to break up with him. He's a nice guy when it was this one of those. And so I what was so funny is I was like devastated for a minute, and then I hung up the phone and I heard how upset my agent was, and I called her back and I said, Hey, it's gonna be okay, we're gonna get another one. And she was like, Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Ornstein 18:52

Yeah, how sweet though. How sweet. I mean, to know she's really in your corner for you.

Estes Tarver 18:57

Yeah, she was the best. She's casting out, she's a great agent. I loved her.

Jeff Ornstein 19:02

Tell me this on a little bit more of a somber note. You discussed that there have been times where there have been mental distress that has impacted you, and as it does everyone, we all go through periods of that, and how we deal with it can be deeply personal and very different from even someone that's very close to us. But those things, that kind of those kinds of experiences where you're really challenging your inner strength can really be transformative in your performance. And I was just wondering, because if I understood it, I think your academy and your acting does start with some lot of folks that are very young and then goes through different age groups. But when you're really young, you might not have a lot of those downward spiral situations that can actually be really beneficial to an actor.

Estes Tarver 19:50

Understanding, yeah.

Jeff Ornstein 19:52

Right. So is there a way that you can express experiences to your students that you're mentoring for and how that would impact your role if they haven't had that experience?

Estes Tarver 20:03

Yeah, well, that's that's again a great question. I was doing this yesterday. I was working with an actor yesterday that if I can tell they don't, I will look for analogies in their life and sometimes simpler analogies. There's a lot of stories that are dealing with loss in some way. And I'll ask a 10-year-old, have you ever lost a pet? And lots of times I'll get a yes of something, or have you ever had a best friend move away? Or have you ever had to move? And I'll ask these questions that lots of times will provoke a and I'll see a reaction in the actor, go, oh yeah. And I go, Okay, well, let's play with that idea in underneath in the scene. And then sometimes different things work with different actors, but sometimes then I'll also share experiences of mine and I'll see them connect and go, Oh, I've I have I know something like that. And then sometimes it's okay if you haven't had any of this. Let's find something else to play with behaviorally, and we'll do that. And behavior tells a story too. And sometimes for them, it's understanding what is really there in a moment, meaning I had one yesterday, and there was a moment, and the scene was really about telling this other character who was really down that they were gonna be their friend and they were there for him. And it was this this kid saying, I don't have this, and I don't have this, and I've never had this. And this other kid says, Well, you do now. And the actor was like, I feel like I have to deliver this perfectly. And I said, No, it's not about it's about you letting him know and make sure that he and then I said, So say it to him, and then make sure that he hears you say it, and then he heard you. And so, because I said, I'm gonna react because I'm reading with him lots of times, and I said, I'm gonna hear it, and it's gonna make me do something, and you need to see what that is. And then the actor will say it, and then I'll react as the other character, and then they'll see it, and it'll make them go, Oh, I just gave a gift. And then you see this moment of these two people coming together, and it may not be exactly what you expected, but it's usually pretty great.

Jeff Ornstein 21:58

Is that wonderful?

Estes Tarver 21:59

Yeah, it's What's too great about it?

Jeff Ornstein 22:01

You've been a veteran now for a bit, a little bit. I'm not going to age you or date you, but you know, it's not your first day at the rodeo. And the industry has gone through some significant changes kind of rapidly in the last decade or so. Basically, since you've been around for a bit, I mean, what is your take on the changes? Does the business still surprise you, or have you been able to roll with the punches so much that nothing surprises you anymore?

Estes Tarver 22:25

I think I still get surprised some, and some of it I'm surprised, but I'm like, well, it's not a surprise that happened, but it's a surprise. But so I roll with a lot. Like in the last 10 years, I would tell you, I agree, like massive, especially then COVID and all the strikes and everything. Like for me, you know, and a lot of my friends, there's a three and a half year dead zone in everybody's careers. And I was even talking to a friend of mine in New York who does a ton of stuff as a director and a coach. And I was like starting to really get back, get myself back going. This is probably two years ago. I had family stuff happening, so I had kind of taken myself out for a while to get everything right with parents and things like that. And so as I was coming back in, I was talking to him about re-entering, and he said, Estes, everyone has a three-year gap on their resume. Go look.

Jeff Ornstein 23:12

Yeah, you know, I hear it from a lot of our guests. So they keep busy with other stuff. And in fact, I had someone talk about your medical experience. I had a fellow who is a doctor at MD Anderson, and I don't know, 32 gave it up and went to LA. And he said, I I went from rich to poor overnight. And but and he's very committed. I mean, obviously, if he's leaving a career like that behind, and but keeping busy with projects and writing and directing, but he talked also about 12-month, and 18-month and 24-month drive periods. And you have to be determined to say this is part of the career that I've chosen. Okay, of course, we've gone grossly over time, but I did want to just ask you two quick questions. Is there a story you're dying to tell?

Estes Tarver 24:01

Is there something percolating in the SD's brain works that you want to I have two features that I've written that are not easy sells because they're not, it's what you just said earlier. They're not big concept features, which a lot of people are looking for. Hey, does it open with a car chase or three speed boats crashing into each other? And they're human stories, but one of them is a story about a girl who goes to meet her grandmother and her grandmother disowns the family, and she goes to Portugal to try to meet her. And so that's a story that I love that I've been starting to pitch. And then I have another story that's about a uh vigilante woman who's 75, who's a baker in a small town. And I kind of wrote it after one of my mentors, Joan Darling, who is uh I credit her with so much of the good things that have happened to me. And so it's like a dark comedy about this baker who's taking out the bad people in the small town. It'd be the most fun to shoot that thing. So I'm really starting to sort of pitch more. I used to produce myself a lot, and I'm getting to where I'm like, I want to start just putting decks together and starting to see how I get interest other ways rather than doing the self-funding is always an issue.

Jeff Ornstein 25:12

Always an issue. Okay, I'm gonna wrap it up with asking you this question. So here you are, your younger self, you're sitting in your first acting class, which was a deep, soulful search that you did junior year, I think it was you said in college. Um senior, yeah. Senior, pardon me. And so from that that kid sitting in your first acting class to what you where you are now, is there anything if you told him that would you think would shock you that based upon your life's experiences, get ready, batten down the hatches because this is what you're in for, or is it kind of what you thought it would be?

Estes Tarver 25:50

Oh I said something about this the other day to my wife. I said if I looked back and was able to look forward as that kid and see, hey, look what you did, I'd be super thrilled. Because I was the shyest guy on the planet. I was like, what am I doing? But it's all I wanted to do. And then looking back to that kid, I would say that it definitely was going to be harder than you thought in Lays, but always worth it to stick it out. And George Cloney said something I'll never forget, just to say, he said, Success teaches you nothing, failure teaches you everything. And then he said, But I never won't look back and say, Man, I didn't, I wish I would have tried that or I didn't do it, I didn't finish it. He said, That's always going to be the regret versus I tried it, I failed at it, I didn't do it, but I tried. And then I would also say, you don't have to starve either. I try to tell that to a lot of actors. I go, get the right job for you. Don't think of it as Will Smith said, plan B is just another way to get to plan A. And he said, So just because you're going to get a job that's gonna give you a little bit of a more you're not gonna have to starve all the time. It's gonna help you take classes and do workshops and get headshots and all the stuff you have to do as an actor. Don't consider it your give up job. Consider it the job. If you're always looking at it as the job that's gonna make plan A work eventually, that's what it'll do. I say that to everybody as I go, get a good plan B that's gonna help you get to plan A in a way that's gonna be a life you enjoy because you can't trust the bigness. And I tell them looking wide actors that is like you might book a big gig tomorrow and it might be in 20 years, and I can't tell you, and it may have nothing to do with how good of an actor you are. So you have to enjoy that 20 years, and you that's the thing to figure out.

Jeff Ornstein 27:39

Right, that's awesome. All right, my friend. It was a pleasure having you on. If you get one of your two little German germinating ideas, starts getting up big up momentum. I hope you call us back, come back on the show, tell us what's going on. Maybe during the process, maybe after you go into production, maybe once you start entering whenever you feel you want to talk, yeah. And I'd love to hear more about all of you the time you spend in your academy and at Sundance and everything. It just seems like you're keeping busy and you're keeping inspired, and that's really what it's all about.

Estes Tarver 28:09

Absolutely. I appreciate it. Thank you, Jeff. That's great. It's truth. Estes, have a great day. You too. Thanks for talking. Enjoyed it. Bye bye. Bye bye.