Jeff Ornstein 0:01

Hi everyone and welcome to Next Act with Jeff Orenstein. I am Jeff, and on this show we celebrate people on the cusp of greatness. Those building on past successes in some of the curious and inventive and sometimes unexpected ways they have achieved those and stepping into moments that could define their legacy. We'll talk about current projects, lessons learned, and the extraordinary opportunities ahead. So the best is yet to come. Today's guest is Beverly Brock, president and owner of the Brock Agency Inc. Since founding the agency in 1990, Beverly has built a national business representing union and non-union actors of all ages, as well as screenwriters. With more than three decades in entertainment, Beverly has seen firsthand how casting representation and the business of acting have evolved. She brings a unique perspective on what agents look for, what separates successful talent, and what it takes to build a lasting career in an unpredictable industry. Never a more true word has been spoken. So welcome, welcome, Beverly.

Beverly Brock 1:06

Thank you, Jeff. Thank you.

Jeff Ornstein 1:08

We're delighted to have you here. So I mentioned a little bit in our pre-recording that we've had some other agency founders like yourself, and not a lot. And the insights that you share can mean a lot to the folks that are listening. Next Act is developed for people who may have had other careers and are thinking about joining our industry, or have had a series of overlapping complementary careers and sort of trying to make that meld into something bigger and better and be a legacy-defining jump for them. So I think you've been in this business in 1990. You've seen a lot, and you've seen a lot of changes.

Beverly Brock 1:45

It's changed so much. I mean, I used to have what did you call that kind of fax machine? It was a roll, it came off a roll.

Jeff Ornstein 1:52

Oh, yeah.

Beverly Brock 1:53

I can't remember what you call it, but when I'd leave and go on a trip of any kind, I came back and that roll would be all the way out my office door into the other room.

Jeff Ornstein 2:02

That slimy paper, too.

Beverly Brock 2:04

Yes, and you had to cut it all apart, and then you had to read the breakdown. Then you got to call the casting director and say, Can I send you headshots in the mail? And that's how I used to cast. I'd pitch my people that way and send the headshots in the mail with their resumes attached, hoping that they would fit the role of Jackie or Joe or whatever. And I and then I'd call and follow up after it should have gotten there by the mail, which was a little faster than it is today, I have to say. So I don't use the postal service very much because it's so slow. I use the EPS store because it's pretty quick. But it's changed so, so much. And during COVID, it changed even more because there are no in-person auditions anymore, which actors really want. But I can see it never going back to in-person because it's so much quicker, so much easier. I tell them to just be yourself when you get on that Zoom call back. They want to see you.

Jeff Ornstein 2:59

Yeah, tell me this. Do you think that directors or writers or anyone sitting on the casting bench is at a detriment by not having that face-to-face presentation by the performer?

Beverly Brock 3:11

I think so. Yes, I do. Because when people are in person with you, you can kind of the director will read with them, and sometimes the casting agent will read with them, casting director will read with them. And then if the director's there, he'll read with them, which is really a big perk because they think you're good enough for the director to read with you. That's a really big deal. And or the casting director, that's both of them are a big deal. So people miss that. They really do. And because they can really be themselves, they can be more casual in person. You get to see their body language and not just on camera, because on camera, people get stiffer. They just do. And in person, you're just more relaxed. I tell everybody, don't shake hands, don't shake hands, don't shake anyone's hand, don't want to shake your hand, don't hug anybody, just walk in and say, Thanks for letting me come in. And that's the way I used to tell them all the time. There were certain casting directors who did not want you to touch them. And I don't blame them.

Jeff Ornstein 4:00

Tell me this. So is it your belief that it'll never go back to live auditions?

Beverly Brock 4:05

I don't think so. I mean, it is so much easier and quicker at once in their office, and talent doesn't they don't have to travel to the location. It could be across the country. They may be doing a nationwide search. And it really is simpler if you just learn to be casual and be yourself. Like you and me right now, we're talking. I could be all stiff and rigid, but what good would that do you or anybody listening? It doesn't do anyone any good. So you they have to learn not to be stiff and uptight. Because sometimes even in people's audition takes, they're stiff. I said, you've got to loosen up. Do your breathing and do your nose out through your mouth. One, two, three, four, five, six. I said, if you do that six times, you will loosen up. It mentally helps you. And breathing exercises work. And I try to get everyone to understand this will work for you. It works for me. It puts me to sleep at night. So it really works. But I don't think it'll go back to in-person because it's just number one, you don't have to travel. There's no gas out of your pocket. You don't have to get there on time to fight the traffic, get there late. And number two, why are you not spreading germs? That's a really important thing today, try to stay well and healthy.

Jeff Ornstein 5:19

So tell me this. So many years you've been in the industry and preferences and taste levels and what viewers are expecting from their performers, a lot of that's changed over time. So when you're looking at new talent, what are you looking for? Or what stands out to you as someone, this person, someone I want on my roster?

Beverly Brock 5:39

It's someone who really has that energy, who really wants to do it, because they have to get on the sites for me to pitch them. I can't just email casting the rep like I used to. They say, please do not email or call us. That's what it says. Because they get so many calls from agents like myself. I try to honor that and not call. I will email after they've sent the audition in, but there are many times it says, do not email us, do not call us. And that's so you have to wait. And when people, why don't you call them? Why don't you email them? Well, it says, do not call, do not email. And that's what it means. Leave us alone, let us do our job. Because we're all usually they're aren't going on to another job. So it's not that they're not interested in you. It's just that they have a job to do and it's hard. So I tell everybody, you just that what you need to do when you get in front of someone, a big casting director, there's so many wonderful casting directors, be grateful. You are blessed to be in front of that casting director. And if they thought you were good enough once, they'll think you're good enough again.

Jeff Ornstein 6:42

Right. That's something we've heard before. Exactly. Don't be discouraged if you don't get one guy said he went before one casting director 10 times and he was about ready to throw in the towel, and then he got his 11th, and someone said, This is the lesson learned. You're being called back for a reason. So just go with the flow and don't take it personally. Tell me this. I was just gonna say, so we know what's changed with how you interface with the casting directors, how you get your clients in front of the casting directors. On the flip side, how has that part of the industry changed? Like, do they have different expectations other than the don't call me?

Beverly Brock 7:19

I submit our actors access. Okay. Well, when I send you the message, I have to do a lot of legwork to get them to check your email. You've got an audition notice, and I get excited. I'll call them anyway. I sent you an audition or I'll text them. Then if they still don't accept it or decline it, then casting doesn't know if they've on tape or not, and neither do I. And I'll let them have four times of not accepting or declining, and then I'll give them that a call. It's time for you to do something else. But if this isn't working for you, it looks makes my business look bad, makes the company look bad, and it hurts my other talent. You've got to accept or decline. Sending on Casting Networks. All you have to do is log in, check that little check so it goes green, so casting knows you're going to take, or you have to decline, leave a note that then know why. I'm going to be out of the country during the shoot dates.

Jeff Ornstein 8:09

So how many people are in your files? Is it called representation? So how many people are you representing now?

Beverly Brock 8:14

Probably 625 across the country. And I have some overseas too. I have some in Melbourne, Australia, and in Venice and in London too. And then the rest of them are here in the United States. Some are even all across the United States, not just and in Mexico. I've got people everywhere.

Jeff Ornstein 8:32

Is that a number that changes? You're stable? Are you always around the 600 mark?

Beverly Brock 8:37

Or well, I've been dropping people because they don't respond. Because if you're not responding to my calls or my emails, it means you're not interested anymore. But I have people who've got out for a while because they started the business and they were trying to get it rolling and it was just so much they got out. And I tell them if you get out and go get another agent, you can't come back. It's because you lost faith in me, you closed the door. But I have a lot of people who didn't close the door on the agency. They just basically started the business, try to get it running. They said, I got my business running. Can I come back? I said, Did you get another agent? No, ma'am, I didn't. I trust you. And that that makes me feel really good. And I know they're not lying, so I take them back because I know they're marketable and they do work hard. As long as they work as hard as I do, that's what I expect because I work really hard for them.

Jeff Ornstein 9:23

Yeah, it's a team effort. You both win if you both succeed it, but it takes an effort on both parties' part.

Beverly Brock 9:28

Teamwork makes the dream work, and that's true statement, too.

Jeff Ornstein 9:31

Right. Yeah. Tell me this. As someone who's relatively new in the industry, since I've started, and the industry had already sort of taken a dip to the not so positive. And the word on the street is very hard to get an agent, very hard to get representation, very difficult. Have your standards changed over the last five or six years while our industry is going through somewhat of a transition, transitionary period?

Beverly Brock 9:56

I don't always expect people to have a long, lengthy resume. If they've done something in the past and they have a drive, and it's a new face. Sometimes new faces book right away. I have one actor in the Raleigh Durham area. As soon as I signed him, he booked like four jobs straight in a row within six months. This was a long time ago. And he's still with me. He was so shocked. And I even booked one with him and his young son. And he's always been so dedicated. He had to take a little leave because he went through an issue with his personal life. And he told me, I said, that's okay, we'll just book you out. I'll book you out in two or six months and you come back when you're ready. But he just booked New Faces Will Book because no one's seen them before.

Jeff Ornstein 10:40

Right, exactly. So tell me this. With that being said, is there a flavor of the month right now for new faces? Is there a particular style or appearance of young actor-actresses that are catching the eye of casting directors and directors?

Beverly Brock 10:55

Everyday people. And the mob look is kind of back in too. So older guys who love to wear a flashy suit, got a really good look and real good poise. That that's kind of a big thing too, with Tulsa King doing so well. And there's a lot of good TV series and some films. But then you've got Angle Studios bringing out so much stuff. And it's just everyday faces. Everyday faces. Line a lot of makeup, no jewelry, simple, plain. Like you look today. You look great today. Simple, plain. You look great. But you kind of look simple. You don't need to overdo, not a lot of makeup, not no flashy anything. But of course, they have to have people that look like a hooker sometimes in these TV series. But so if you want to do something that's kind of a little bit edgy, that's okay because I can't submit a girl who looks like the girl next door for that. But sometimes you have to be like in New York. They want New York local hire or New Jersey. And they think we I can be up there. I said, no, you don't live there. This happened to me with a very big casting director. And she said she could be there anytime. Well, she wasn't there. I said, if I tell Matthew, you better be there. And I told him they wanted to come in the next day for fitting. They want to book her right then. I can't do that. I'm in LA. I said, You told me you shouldn't have been, but you could leave set and be there. I said, He will never hire you again. And he told me, he says, Babe, you tell her I'll never hire her again. He's very big and I love working with him. I work with him now a lot. But he knew that I'd tell her and I did, because no one is gonna book a liar. Because that doesn't mean you're gonna show up. Will you show up? Will you be on time? Will you stay the full day? Not that someone's just a liar. They're just trying to book a lot of stuff. But you're still, and that's why I say New York local hire only. We mean it. They'll say that in the notices. Same thing in Atlanta.

Jeff Ornstein 12:44

You're juggling so many things between the crew and locations. And the last film I worked on, which was a small film, had twice two or three times as many crew members as it did cast members. So there's a lot of organs, and you can't have like somebody who's sort of into it or sort of committed. That's pretty disrespectful to everybody involved.

Beverly Brock 13:02

It is, it really is. So I don't take that from anybody anymore. And if you want to work, you better be in one location. I have one of my addresses. She lives in Los Angeles. I think she's from London. But she lives in Los Angeles. But she comes out to the East Coast and lives in New York from like July through the end of October. And she'll do it every year. She does it every year. She's great.

Jeff Ornstein 13:25

She's reliable. Yeah. So in that respect, are there things that you recommend to young artists or people making the transition, young to the industry, let's just say, that they should focus on prior to trying to get an agreement to have a manager or an agent? Are there ducks that they have to get into a row?

Beverly Brock 13:43

If they've never done anything, at least they can get into martial arts or to dancing. I tell a lot of parents that when they're new, and some one mother got mad at me really bad because Tal was five and she thought she could do everything. But she could. She'd never done anything. They don't want to hear that. And I understand that it's hurtful. Get your child into dance or into gymnastics or taekwondo, something. And then if they're older, they'd get them into horseback riding, get them something that they can have on their resume and get them into some theater. There's all this local theater, even theater at your church. You can do plays at your church, plays at the school, and that's something for your resume that shows you have something that shows you can get up in front of people and do it. You can bring it.

Jeff Ornstein 14:24

Excellent. So we've talked a little bit about the change in the process since the digital world took over. You created Eagles Wings Entertainment to champion writers for whom I have to say I wish I could be a writer. I don't have that ability to see a story from beginning to end and then put pencil to paper. But what made you realize that great stories deserve just as much representation as great actors?

Beverly Brock 14:48

Well, the sag strike. First it was COVID and then the sag strike. I thought, wait a minute, I'm not working. My people aren't working. What I got to do, something. So I started another company. And it's been it's been a blessing. And right now we're at the precipice of funding for some of these and for marketing in a different fashion that I feel very positive about. I'm getting positive feedback. I've got such a variety of screenplays and TV series that we are pitching. And I have a guy who's writing pitches that make it stand out. He's so talented and gifted. And then I have people that, you know, all across the country that help kind of meld this all together. Because I trust my writers a lot. I said, if you can't work together as a team, we can't work together. If we submit your stuff, let's say, I don't know, to MGM or something, and they say, no, we're going to pass on this. Okay, we've got contact there. So I'll use that contact to submit somebody else's stuff. If you can't say that's okay, then you don't need to be on board because everybody needs the shot. We all need to give everybody a shot. And it may not ever work for anybody. Maybe they're not looking for anything right now. We don't know. So, but I do know I know a lot of really good great producers. And they'll say, I really like that, but we can't sell that right now. It's just too much money involved in historical pieces. Okay, I understand that. But and there's too much involved in that series. But I like this. If you could turn this into a script, get it back to us, we might be serious about it. Ah, that just happened. That just happened.

Jeff Ornstein 16:24

Congratulations. Well, this is a theme that comes up a lot. It's of course funding because of the sort of the ups and downs that our industry is in right now for getting funding. What's the sweet spot for fundable movies because of for the total budget? What it's transpiring easier than it used to in the past. But also what I'm curious to know from you, is there a storyline that's sort of on a roll right now? Is it the Western, which seems to be pretty popular, or love stories, or rom coms, you don't seem to see a lot of them.

Beverly Brock 16:59

Christmas movies are always a winner, especially if they're written well and they've got to make their characters, they've got a roll throughout the whole script. You've got to make them believable. Did you ever read The Thornbirds back years and years that novel?

Jeff Ornstein 17:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's I was in high school.

Beverly Brock 17:17

Well, I wasn't in high school. I was older than that. I'm sorry. Because I'm older than you probably. But I read that novel when I was pregnant, it was my first child. And I just love that. I laid in the sun and read that novel. I thought, oh yes, they made it to a movie, it's a series. It was a short series.

Jeff Ornstein 17:31

Yep. Richard Chamberlain.

Beverly Brock 17:33

Yes. And it was just like I envisioned the book. And that's what you have to write like. You've got to make those characters believable, and they've got to come alive on those pages when you put it together so people want to watch it. I was so sad when it was done. I was so sad. But it was so awesome. It was really an awesome. And it's hard to it's hard to do that. Pig Barn.

Jeff Ornstein 17:59

It it made an impression on you, and that's good theater. I mean, you took something away. You wanted to be back in that world. That's very cool. A real tribute to the director, too, who was able to tell that story, you know, incorporating set design and costume.

Beverly Brock 18:14

They should rerun that. It was so awesome. That was a phenomenal short series. I loved it. And I tell Ape, if you can make your characters come alive like they do in the Floon Birds, you've got something that's marketable.

Jeff Ornstein 18:28

So if you could give an inspiring, well, the producers wrote actor, but I think we can include writers as well as this. One piece of advice before they walk into their audition or they walk in to pitch their script, what would it be? Is there one like basic fundamental advice you like to inspire people to kind of live by, use this as your foundation and then build upon it?

Beverly Brock 18:50

When you get the opportunity to meet anybody in person, dress nicely and look nice, it's like an interview. Or you go to a job interview, you're gonna look nice. And so you want to look nice. And when you go in there, let them ask you questions. Don't talk about yourself. When you talk about yourself and you know one can get a word n edgewise, right there, that's gonna be a closed door for you. You've got to let them ask you questions. Just like I was I said, go ahead and ask me questions because I like questions, because I love to answer questions, and I like to talk kind of like you.

Jeff Ornstein 19:20

I do like to talk.

Beverly Brock 19:22

I do too. Uh I like just let them ask you questions and then answer them short and sweet. And then say, Well, can you elaborate on that some more? And then you do that, but remember, it's always short and sweet to the point. Don't talk about yourself, talk about what you're there for. You dare to push your script. I wrote this script because one of my friends went through a really bad time and they came out of it, and everything's great. And I wanted people to know how he worked this hard to get where he's at now. Kind of short and sweet and precise and condensed, because no one wants to hear a bunch of stuff about you. They want to hear about what you come to do.

Jeff Ornstein 20:03

Right. They're asking questions, so there's things they want to know. You might want to tell them what you want them to know, and they might want to hear what they want to know. And at the end of the day, you're leaving and they're staying. So what's important to them is a little bit more important than what you want to get.

Beverly Brock 20:20

That's why you need to let them take the steering wheel and ask you questions, and you answer the questions and let them manage the car. Don't try to put forth too much because some people like to talk about themselves too much, and that can hurt you. It can hurt you. They want to know about your script. How did you get there? How did you come up with this idea? Where did you get it from? They'll ask you all those questions, and you just got to answer the questions truthfully, and then that'll help them get more questions to ask you. And the more they can ask you and learn about your project or whatever you're bringing to the table, the more it's gonna open the door for you. I feel like it's gonna be a positive for you just to let them ask you the questions.

Jeff Ornstein 21:02

Right. You know what's coming across loud and clear, Beverly, is you're no nonsense about authenticity. You've been very consistent. Be yourself, look nice, be presentable, which is a sign of respect to the people you're meeting with, speak when spoken to, answer the questions at hand, and don't just get up on a soapbox and tell your story willy-nilly and be yourself. And it sounds to me like that's your advice for a recipe for success. Well, that authenticity is going to be read by the people that you want to impress.

Beverly Brock 21:34

I believe that's true because I try to be myself. I try to help people whenever they have an issue with their tile. I have a lot of people who have children and have got issues, and they tell me, and I try to help them come up with a solution to get I said, it's okay. Everybody has a malady, everybody has an issue they don't talk about. Even me, I have issues they don't talk about. So you have to overcome it. If you want to overcome it, you can. Don't ever Tell your child, um, you should have gotten that audition. You should have got it. You were the best. How do you know they're the best? You didn't see anyone else audition. You don't say that to your child. Say nothing to your child. Say, you did great. You know what? I'm glad you got in front of that that that director, because they'll call you back because you were so good. We'll just keep on going. And that's how you got to keep a positive attitude for that child.

Jeff Ornstein 22:21

Beverly, what's also coming across loud and clear is it seems to me like you run your business like a family. So that there's got to be professional stability, but there's supposed to be emotional stability and there's got to be accountability and all these things that you kind of like lean on your family for, which is great. I mean, I would it doesn't surprise me that your folks are so loyal to you. That's not commonplace in any industry in this day and age, let alone our industry. So I have to ask this, but are there any ingredients you think that gives a performer longevity? Like is it changing with the times? Is it staying who you are, the core who you are? Is there anything that you think makes a career span three decades, four decades?

Beverly Brock 23:06

I think staying yourself, staying true to yourself, being the character that you come out what's inside of you. I have a guy that's was on Sopranos, and he still looks like he could be on the Sopranos. He's awesome, and that's where he gets booked for mostly or that type of role, because he comes across like that. But he's awesome. I mean, he just he comes across that way, and he knows he does. That's what he likes. He does a good job, and he's an awesome actor. And if he doesn't get it, I'll get the next one. That's okay. He has that kind of mentality. I have another guy like that, and they're both in New York, and he's like that too. He's got a real unique voice, like the guy on Chicago PD. What's that guy Lee guy's name? I can't remember. Hank, he plays Hank Voigt, I think. And he's got that real raspy voice. He said something happened to his voice, and he's got a raspy voice too. I said, You're gonna get a big job one day because of your voice is so unique and so different. And they know that. They know they're special in a different way, and they stay steady. They stay steady. That staying steady to yourself and doing what you like is what's important because you're gonna do it the best.

Jeff Ornstein 24:16

Right. And don't fight type, which is another topic that's come up on this podcast many times. There's a reason it's true, and it happens because it's valid. So if you're the raspy gangster, you're not gonna get the ingenue. You're gonna be the raspy gangster.

Beverly Brock 24:31

You're not gonna get the guy next door.

Jeff Ornstein 24:33

Right, right. We're just not. I love this. So just so I'm clear, Beverly, where are you located?

Beverly Brock 24:39

I am in Hickory, North Carolina. Used to be the furniture capital of the world. I came here, my ex-husband and his family had a furniture company here, which after we were here, I forget how long, maybe 12 years, then a lot of the the furniture went overseas to China. And now it's coming back. So it's great because we used to have big furniture markets here. I used to cook for a restaurant here in Hickory. During Furn Dim Market Week, because I'm a great cook. I love to cook. And and then I used to have dinners for all our sales reps and their wives. And so I would cook with my mother-in-law. I love Hickory. I do that. That that company is no longer, but it was we sold it to Century Furniture a long time ago. But if that was the most fun, is coming to Hickory and meeting all this wonderful people that I know here that have made my life wonderful and joyful. They have.

Jeff Ornstein 25:29

Isn't that great? Yeah, we there's no place like home.

Beverly Brock 25:31

I mean Well, I'm not from here. I'm from Raleigh originally. I grew up in Raleigh, but I've been here longer than I was ever born in Raleigh. I was born and raised there. I left when I was 19 and came here. Got married at 19 and came to Hickory. And I have my two girls here, and now I have four grandchildren, and I am happy as a clam.

Jeff Ornstein 25:49

Excellent. I actually I designed hotels in my day job, and I've done that for 46 years. So I'm juggling these two careers. And I just attended uh High Point. After High Point was over, they had a special showing just for hospitality designers. A lot of the showrooms that want to get into supplying for hotels. And so I was just down there, and where's the big chair? Is that where I was? Where's the big chair? Is that high point?

Beverly Brock 26:14

They might be here in Hickory. You might have been here.

Jeff Ornstein 26:16

And I've been in this business long enough to remember Hickory Craft Furniture. And there was a bunch of furniture companies with the name Hickory in it.

Beverly Brock 26:24

Yep, yep. They're in the Hickory Wellcrafted.

Jeff Ornstein 26:26

I can still see the logos.

Beverly Brock 26:28

It was Habersham. Ours was Habersham.

Jeff Ornstein 26:30

We have gone way over time because I talk a lot and you talk a lot. And that's a recipe for success. That's a great recipe for success. So I want to thank you so much for joining and sharing some of your insights. I'm sure it's going to generate a lot of buzz to our listeners and watchers because you can't buy experience. And your experience has been really, you've been really laser focused and consistent. So that's really helpful. People here are straight, pulling no punches. So thank you. Thank you so much for joining us.

Beverly Brock 26:59

Thank you, Jeff, for asking me. I appreciate it.

Jeff Ornstein 27:01

You're welcome. And you have a wonderful event. Good luck with your premiere in LA in the fall.

Beverly Brock 27:07

Yeah, I'll let you know how it goes. I'll let you know.

Jeff Ornstein 27:09

Okay, yeah, definitely. Give us a shout. Maybe we'll have you back on and you can tell me. I would love to.

Beverly Brock 27:13

I would love to.

Jeff Ornstein 27:14

All right, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

Beverly Brock 27:15

Thank you very much. All right.

Jeff Ornstein 27:17

All right. Thanks for tuning in to Next Act with Jeff Orenstein. Follow, subscribe, and stay connected to your favorite socials at www.nexttackpodcast.com. Keep chasing your next act. The best is yet to come.