Jeff Ornstein 0:02

Hi, everyone, and welcome to Next Act with Jeff Orenstein. I am Jeff, and on this show we celebrate people on the cusp of greatness, those building on past successes in some of the curious and inventive and sometimes unexpected ways they have achieved those and stepping into moments that could define their legacy. We'll talk about current projects, lessons learned, and the extraordinary opportunities ahead. So the best is yet to come. Today's guest is Ernest Chan, Emmy nominated animation supervisor at DreamWorks Animation, with more than two decades of experience helping to bring some of the world's most beloved animated series to life. He has worked across over 30 hit productions, including SpongeBob SquarePants, Kung Fu Panda, Legends of Awesomeness, Shira, and The Princess of Power, Voltron, Legendary Defender, and many more. Ernest brings a rare mix of artistic vision, technical innovation, and leadership, overseeing teams building production pipelines and shaping the future of animation across broadcast, streaming, and global studios. Welcome, Ernest. Good morning. That's a very impressive resume and one of the longest run-on sentences I think I've ever been presented with. I have to say that we're reaching out to different people within our industry primarily. And I think we've had one or two other animation experts with us, but you are clearly very accomplished, and it's so important because this is such an important part of entertainment today. So I'm sure you're going to have a lot of keen insights for people that are thinking about as their next act going into animation and what's the down and dirty truth about it behind the scenes. So uh whatever you're comfortable sharing. So tell me this, because this really resonated with me. You're an Emmy nominated animation supervisor. Firstly, congratulations. But secondly, can you share what project that was? And did that have some significant meaning to you when you learned you were nominated for an Emmy?

Ernest Chan 2:04

Uh it was for the main title of our Puss and Boots TV series. I think it's Emmy for best main title intro or something. I didn't win.

Jeff Ornstein 2:13

You don't have to win if you're nominated. You can always list, so you're always green.

Ernest Chan 2:18

And just to be clear, like I wasn't just honored to be nominated. I wanted to win. So uh I mean, I was surprised because I'm kind of in a I mean, one, I didn't know that category exists. Yeah, it was quite a surprise because I didn't know that was in my position, I was ever in a spot where it could be considered for something like that. So when I got it, I was like, oh wow, that's that's kind of cool. That's good for the LinkedIn bunk. So Yeah, very cool. Um yeah, it was good to be organized. I guess you have to submit your work or the studio submits on your behalf. Like I didn't even know I was being like that was being submitted. So it's submitted, and I guess to get past the committee or however they choose to filter down and say, Wow, it's I kind of run the gauntlet. I almost got to the finish line.

Jeff Ornstein 2:58

Well, I'm very impressed with it. So for whatever it's worth, and you and again, any nominated can always be on your CV now for the rest of your life.

Ernest Chan 3:05

Yeah.

Jeff Ornstein 3:06

Now you're a supervisor there. Can you explain to the listeners a little bit about how you worked up to that position? Like where you started and what were the steps that elevated you?

Ernest Chan 3:17

So my supervisory transition from artist to supervisor goes all the way back to when I was at Nickelodeon. So Nickelodeon was the second place I worked at professionally out of school. So I joined a small department that was it was the first digital group at Nickelodeon because they were born to support the show Invader Zim because Zim had was the first digital show, so they did it like compositors, 3D people. That's my background. I guess this is how some people get promoted, but I was last man standing in the department. I was literally the last person because some people chose to move on. And I was the last person. It was just like, well, artists, you seem to be the only person who knows what these files do, and you can hang out until and unfortunately there's also a spot where Nickelodeon was actually down in terms of work. There wasn't much work going on, so that's why some people chose to move on. I might be getting laid off. So some people moved into games, one two people choose to we were in TV on Nickelodeon's TV, so they wanted to pursue their feature dreams. Like one person I went to go work on King Kong. So it's like some people just it's like career leveling up. Some people are like, uh, this might be a time for me to move on. So I was like the last person there because like, okay, well, I don't have anything else, and I still am hoping to be employed. So, in terms of being a supervisor, I ran that department, so to speak, by myself, where I recognize work would start to trickle back in. Oh, the Spongebob needs something. Can you do this? I can do that. I don't know, this is, and then it kind of came out of its little valley, and they were green lighting a lot of shows, and one of them like had a ton of CG and digital work, the X's. After what I was like, I told my boss, like, I can't do this by myself anymore. Like, this is way too much. And that's you know, hey, that means you have to let me hire people, which in turn is the whole well then. I want to be called a supervisor. So I guess there's a Games of Thrones-esque way of getting promoted in life. I don't know. You know, you did you're just the last man standing, I guess, right? That's how I became a supervisor. I I don't know that I ever had it in my brain to be a supervisor. I don't know that my goals were ever that big because animation is so difficult to stay relevant that you're just like, I just hope I have a job.

Jeff Ornstein 5:11

Well, you know, it's just it sounds like it's a little maybe you were the last man standing, but it's a sink or swim situation where all of a sudden there's sounds like more responsibility than you had prior to the departures of your associates to the present. And I know when I started my company back in 1989, all of a sudden I went from being a designer to a business owner, and there are tons of more responsibilities associated with that. So when you were faced with being the sole survivor, so to speak, I mean, was that exciting for you? Was it intimidating? How do you navigate through that transition?

Ernest Chan 5:48

Well, when I was by myself, it was kind of great because you like, well, you can't fire me, and I'm the only person here, right? So I had this giant room to myself where I just walked around my socks all day because I don't come in the room. And it was like, it was great. I could listen to music without putting my headphones on. It was great. So, but to your question of like, okay, well, now you go from the artist role to the supervisor role. I mean, there was no like transition period for me. And I didn't have and I've I've had going to high school and like I and I worked at a bakery and I was a supervisor there, so I kind of could close the store. So I was I guess kind of familiar with managing people, but honestly, I don't know that I was able to really draw maybe subconsciously I was able to draw a lot of that experience because I'm very much like, well, I'm not gonna ask you to do anything that I won't do. Hey, you and I are gonna take the track shot together or something like that. And being, you know, where I was from artist supervisors, there's certainly like, well, I've done shots before, like, I know how to do shots, like when I'm gonna expect you to do the same. But when I was up for artists to supervisor role, it was very stressful because you know, you're very keen. Well, I'm kind of getting a chance to rebuild this department that was it was been in great standing when we were there, we were you know, when we had the team, and we kind of the studio kind of collapsed a little bit and come back, oh, I I oh I have a chance to put my fingerprints on it, not only for the the name of the department, but also knowing that like for me, you know, I was very, very mindful. Now it wasn't because I was like I'm ego chasing or anything, but I was very mindful that when I go interface with like Budge Hartman, the head of L FOP, like I'm interfacing with him, so I would do my best to like present like what I can do where it's a department. So uh the transition from artist to to superior was actually quite difficult because so Nickelodeon, when they they had this session where they had this meeting with all the supervisors, all the people were in charge of people because it's a mix of training, and anyone knows it's also part of HR, right? So if you screw up, they try to say, well, no, we told Ernest he's not allowed to punch people, so you could we can fire him. It's like, oh, okay, right. You know, there's a little bit of that, right? He says, Okay, yeah. Does anyone that's kind of what these things are for, too? We told you company policy, right? And you agreed, right? So I was sitting in the stands, it's the liquiding gym where it was like a half gym where you do screenings, but had basketball hoops, so I had these like pull-out bleachers. So I was like sitting with the stands, right? And when they got to this one topic where inevitably you're gonna get to the situation, hopefully not, like there's happened. You have someone you're managing that who's underperforming and you want to take some action on them, whether it's discipline, termination, like we get that. This happens, right? And they said, Well, if the first thing we're gonna do though is before we talk to them, we're gonna talk to you. And I'm sitting up there in the stands, I'm thinking, like, that's weird. Like, as a supervisor, I already told you that I want to move on from this person or whatever. Like, I'm the supervisor, I made that decision. Why are you questioning me? Like, this is my department, like I know this this situation better than you. And they're like, Yeah, we get it, but we're gonna talk to you first. We're gonna ask you, did you put that person in a position to succeed? From our point of view, that is the role supervisor. Whatever it is, if your storeboard server, like whatever, whatever title you have, at the very top level umbrella ethos of what you're just supposed to do in the studio, is like, did you put that person in a position to succeed? And I was like, Oh, okay. Now that question only works though if you're honest with your answer. You could be like, Well, I'm the supervisor, I'm the boss. He can't do the job, I told him what you do. This doesn't absolve the person from being like, No, I need to fire them. They're not good. That can still happen. But when I got that question, because at the time I had brought in people who were internal to the studio, because my boss is like, I need to hire some people. And he was like, Oh, well, we have someone, so in this department, who's really into what you're doing. He just graduated. I don't know, do you want to work with him? And I it was a mix of, oh, well, this person's already here, so it kind of makes it easy easy for me because I don't have to collect resumes and evaluate people. And I like to view myself as very helpful. And they're like, well, if this person wants to do and they're here, you know, it's hard to get in the industry. So if this person's here, okay, like he's got an inside track, let's like maybe this will work out. So it's like a win-win, right? So the deck, the only problem with this was that these people weren't really qualified. If we were to like strip away the whole, like, you're inside the studio and you know my boss and your friends were so and so. If we strip it out, I'm be like, if I were just like objectively, like now today, look at say maybe the real, be like, oh, I don't know if I'd hire this person, right? So I'd kind of painted myself into this corner of working with these people where they're making my life difficult, right? And it was it's very easy to get frustrated because like, well, I can do the shot. I know what the shot is, I would get it done in a week. I don't understand why you're taking a week and a half, and it's not even close to what I want. I would put this here, because this is what driving me insane. We can't show this stuff, I can't approve this, right? I'm embarrassed to put this in the post. I had so much stress and anxiety during this time when I'm trying to rebuild apartment. There's a ton of work, there's like too much work where it would have probably been fine if I had really accomplished people because like I know what I'm doing, blah, blah, blah, blah. But here am I training people at the same time? So with that question of what did you put that person in a position to succeed? I had to realize no, I didn't. And I had to be honest with that because it was like, well, why not? Because that question is so layered. There's so many layers to that. They're like, Well, I don't know. You didn't know he did they didn't know the software that I know. So they're trying they're trying to learn the software. They didn't really get training prime, they didn't have the skill set. There's so many things where you realize, I'm always of the belief that if you're in charge, it's always your fault. I don't care what happens. I mean, we don't have that in politics for some reason, but like as a boss, it was your fault. Now you could say, like, yeah, but this person's not a good artist, they can't do the job. Then my devil's, I could be like, but apparently you seem to think they could have done the job. You made the choice to hire this person. Where did you like you screwed up here? And it's oh yeah, my radar's off, right? That's kind of where I had to really crack that stress level because like I was like fixing shots in the background. I was like, hey, you just forget it, I'll finish the shot. I was taking stuff away from them because I had to get because I'm like trying to crank to the deadline and a quality level, we're like, I know this has to look like this to get on TV, or like this doesn't look right, or this is fixing stuff. I kind of had to pull myself away that because it wasn't helping them, they weren't learning faster because like things were getting better, but it wasn't because they did it. And I had to really start to recalibrate myself. And unfortunately, there was a spot where we then hit a lull, and it was like, Well, do you want to keep this person on the department? I was like, No, I'm good with moving on, I need to start over. And then that's when I like I did collect great reels and I do proper interviews. So there's a lot of learning that I had to go from artists where you can just put your headphones on, like you're just responsible for your one thing. But when you start to get a supervisor where you're like managing people, because managing people, like if you do your job right and hire the right people, the work takes care of itself. So even from Nick to where I'm in dreamworks, I continue to kind of as I get older in my career, self-reflect on well, how have I survived so long, or what is am I doing a good job as a supervisor? Because I think part of it is I always questioning what could I have done better. One thing I've kind of I now kind of hold over myself is that the success that we have is yours, but the failures are mine. So if we did a great project, like I'll get credit just because by association, like where it's in charge, but yeah, but I attached to Sean, like I gave it to her, and she really wanted to like really get all clap and throw balloons around, like you should go talk to her because she deserves it. When a project goes sideways, like that's on me. Like that's me. So you guys can have the success, the failures are mine. So I kind of try to make sure I do that and always question, did I do this right? Because even between my time and Nick and now, like I've had projects for stuff, and that didn't like that didn't work out as quite quite as well as I would have liked. Like, then why? So always learn and just take accountability, a lot more of a growth of personal empathy. One thing you kind of realize is this whole thing of did you put that person in position to succeed? They start to realize you just have to understand the people aren't you, like down to their DNA, like this person's not you, like they are not gonna have the hours of experience of you. They've they're not into anime as much as you. So you keep referencing anime and they're like, I don't know what the hell you're talking about. Like, if you can do that where it becomes less about why aren't you working the way I am, or why can't you do it like me, it's more let's figure out how to make you do it the best way you can, and then we'll figure out. Now, that actually is quite stressful because if you have 10 people, you're trying to like, instead of 10 people trying to be like you, you're trying to be like 10 people, it's a little harder, right? And everyone's different. Some people you connect with really easily, and like, oh, this person's easy to manage. And then some people are like, okay, I got to spend a little more attention on this person, even though I may not want to, because it's why can't you be like this person now? Or why can't you be like me? But it's like, no, this person needs a little more attention. I'll figure it out.

Jeff Ornstein 13:48

I feel like you know, I've met my twin or my brother from another mother because I share the story that for eight years I was a designer in design firms, and then I became an owner, and I hadn't been a manager, I had been a senior designer. And so there is a huge additional amount of responsibilities. And like you, we're in an artistic field, and artists come in all shapes and forms with different perspectives. But the responsibility of a supervisor or manager is to empower people and to mentor them. And like you say, you've got 10 people working under you, they're all gonna need encouragement or empowerment in different parts of their job description. And very similar to you, if we succeed as a team, if we fail, it's gonna be a mistake, a judgment I made. So your thought process totally paralleled mine. I mean, now in 37 years, and we always have interns in our office as well as young people in various stages of their career development. And if you're not gonna spend the time investing in them to mentor them, to understand, pass along some of your processes and some of your thought patterns, then their growth is gonna be slow. So it I know exactly what you're talking about, and it's definitely something that no previous experience prepares you for until you're actually trenches.

Ernest Chan 15:06

Even if you go to management training, like until you're doing it, you're learning on the fly.

Jeff Ornstein 15:10

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Ernest Chan 15:12

This is not a simulated environment.

Jeff Ornstein 15:14

It's like you know, some people will take the mentorship willingly and be like, I always tell people, be a sponge. When you come, just be a sponge and learn as much as you can because that's how you get better. Not to insist on this is the way I like to do it, blah, blah, blah, especially when you're a young person, and young people today have very high opinions of their skill sets. And so I know I'm very sympathetic. And obviously, you've been doing this for so long, you've gotten better and better at it, but it's definitely a challenge, and in particular when you're dealing with artists, because it's so non-formulaic. So tell me this since you've been in this for a long time, how has streaming changed in terms of the animation, schedules, budgets, and expectations since the time you've been doing it? Or has there been a change?

Ernest Chan 15:59

Uh, I mean, working with streamers, I mean, the the the where your your stuff is going is certainly changed. Standard media is it's got its wild lot of issues right now with that, right? You know, like Nickelodeon is, I think, not doing great, Cartoon Network's not around anymore, sadly. So everything is you gotta find the audience. It's actually not so much when we talk about streaming, we're probably thinking it's Netflix. Like Netflix is the big dog in streaming. The the biggest disruptors is YouTube. So everyone's on YouTube, right? So everyone's eyeballs are elsewhere, and everyone's viewing habits are different. I think people's not that they're DNA, but like their brain chemistry is different. Everyone's like, oh, this doesn't work for me, swipe. I don't like that. So back in my day, like you had four channels, and what was on TV, what was on TV, and there's no can we skip commercials? No, you're just gonna sit here and watch TV, right? Right, people's habits have changed. Like these these big quote unquote brick and mortar studios, like Dream Race Disney, these big ones. We're like an aircraft carrier. We're a we're all hard to pivot. It takes us a long time to green light projects and produce projects, and ones it's hard to compete with something happens in the news or some sports news and everyone's reaction video, they can fire up online like that and post quickly. Like the speed at which some of these individual content creators can move is very it's very impressive, it's very cool, but it's hard to compete with that. So when we say like in terms of the animation process, I mean for us it's largely the same. You still have a story that and you're trying to vet story. Obviously, if we're like as me at DreamWorks, no, we don't have a dedicated channel, like Nickelodeon can just go to Nickelodeon, right? Which we were trying to sell shows to the Apples, the Hulu, like Peacock Hulu, Amazon, Netflix. So you're you're trying to cater to them. So that could be a little bit thing where it's like you know, you're beholden to what's your stuff is only valuable if someone else wants to buy it.

Jeff Ornstein 17:43

That's true. The producers told me that you mentioned becoming jaded at times, which does not seem part of your DNA, but it's down here in black and white. So my question is what brings the wonder back when that happens? How do you reinvent yourself to say I'm in this funk about I know what I'm doing, I could do it with my eyes closed, blah, blah, blah, blah. But a certain project comes across your desk, and all of a sudden you've got your juices are really flowing, your creative juices. Is there a particular kind of project that curates you?

Ernest Chan 18:13

Oh, so I know what they're referring to. It's an article that I have on my LinkedIn, right? You mentioned being jaded to kind of clarify that for that context. When I say jaded, like people who want animation, like it burns you from the inside out. You want to do this so badly. That's how I was in college. And anyone who's going through school wants to like, or considering, like, I get it. I get it. We're all the same. You're like, I love the studio, I love I gotta, I wish I could work on that show. It burns you from the inside out. So there's certainly a passion about this. But for me, when I was being in kind of the professional setup, like sometimes people ask, What is your favorite show? And I'm like, I don't really have one because there is a bit of my brain that has kind of flipped to where, well, this is a job, so I'm not gonna get too emotional. So when I say jaded, it's just like, well, you worked on this, you know, I repeal, you worked on the show, it's so cool. I'm like, yeah, it is cool. I'm glad you like it. Like, I don't know if it means much to me. It's like I'm proud of it, but I'm not like and I made like I'll collect the toys, but like I don't, I don't know. I did it, I don't know that I have my Comic-Con nerd moment with all these things. Oh, you worked on the show, it's like, yeah, that's cool. But because I just feel like, well, it's I worked on it and I moved on, right? Right. And it's like, well, but it wasn't my project. It was it's I always viewed my thing as very service-oriented. If Butch or Rest in Peace, Steven Hilliberg was happy with what I did, or the art director, then I'm happy. If the show is about some robots punching each other in the head, like, oh man, this sounds amazing, right? I'm totally jacked, and then they come back, and now it's about pink bunny rabbits. And I'll be like, oh, okay. Well, I'm still gonna give you the best pink bunny rabbit show now. Like, I might be a little disappointed, but I'm not like, well, I don't want to work on this, or I'm not telling this. Like, no, like this is what you want. If this like, we're gonna make the most badass pink bunny rabbit show ever. So, like when I say jaded, it's well, I don't really know that I latch on to these things, and it's yeah, I worked on that. It's cool. I'm glad you liked it. I'm very proud of that.

Jeff Ornstein 19:54

And now do a new one.

Ernest Chan 19:56

Yeah. So, yeah. But to go back to answer your question, so this this just this thing about being jaded or just watching an article. I kind of just absorbed shows and like that's great. So I was in Georgia once at a conference, and I was like, I was sitting in the audience because I wasn't talking, I was just sitting there, and I had done, I think, the keynote before or something. And this girl, like in between talks, she kind of walked up to me and she says, Oh, I just wanted to like, hello, I just wanted to pass along a message for my friend. She says, I spent a lot of time translating this. She made it very clear, I spent a lot of time translating this. I'm thinking, like, well, I hope so, because I don't speak Georgian. You're gonna have to do that for me. But I spent a lot of time translating this so I could relay this message for my friend because I told him someone from Nickelodeon was here. Now at the time, I think I was I was not working in Nickelodeon. I was like, Nickelodeon was my past, but it was just part of my spielery, whatever. And she gave me this beautifully worded thing that she passed along. If anyone wants to read my article about it, because I felt so strongly about this that I was like, oh, I need to remember this, because I admit, even in that moment when she told me what she said, it was basically along the lines of as kids from Soviet-era conflict. Nickelodeon was literally her translation was Island of Joy for Kids. And I'm like, and when I first heard it, I'm like, oh, that's kind of a weird, that's a weird imagery. It's very poetic, but like at the time I didn't really hear it because I'm very much, oh, people are about to, that's great. I'm I'm happy, but I don't it's like kind of I'm sorry, sometimes it feels like it's just noise to me. I just get all these things thrown at me, right? I remember standing in my hotel room after hearing this because it was kind of ping-ponging my brain a little bit. Because it's like this is a it's a bit of a worm ear now. I'm trying to understand what this person was trying to tell me. I literally remember I was standing between my bed and my TV and I started crying. So I was like, Island of joy. I'm like, because I clearly she was like, I spent a lot of time translating because she wants to make sure I got the words. Right. So for her to for those to be the freaking words, I was like, oh my god, this is killing me from the inside now. That's when that was the counter to my jaded appointment article. Is like then you realize, okay, yeah, this these things mean something significant. I shared it with my coworkers. I did a whole presentation so they could understand. I basically said that wherever you are in the production process, if you're in production, you're you're messing with calendars all day, like, oh my god, I can't believe this is animation. I'm just doing schedules and stuff. I wanted to make sure everyone in my department knew my my parent department, not just my mini department, like the whole department that I'm under. I basically made sure they understood, just want you to understand that wherever you are on this, what you do is important. It is important, it is important out there. You may not feel like it, you may not know it, but I'm straight up telling you it is important. So that was my counter to my Jada thing. Yeah, sometimes I don't quite. Yeah, I worked on Spongebob, I worked in Zen X's, Neha Land, and all these dreamworks shows. And sometimes when I'm wearing my hoodie, people like, oh my god, you work for dreamworks, or like, oh my god, you worked on this show. It's like, yeah, cool, but this stuff matters to people. So that was my kind of thing of I admit, as I've gone older, I'm much better in not taking this for granted. But when I'm clocking in for the day, my brain is very much to what do you want? Well, but when and how.

Jeff Ornstein 22:48

Right. Ernest, I gotta say, I love that story because you get caught up in the responsibilities and the tasks and the deadlines and the management. And there's some art history, but of course, that the amount of art history ebbs and flows. But here is this complete stranger that came up to you after X amount of years or decades in the industry, and all of a sudden it affected you a little bit later on. You had this epiphany, what I do matters. And you know, and that that's a great catalyst for reinvigoration. And I love the story like that because it burnout is a word we hear a lot about lately. And because, and I think a lot of that has to do with the the the times that we live in. Everything is so fast, and technology is increasing so quickly, and expectations are immediate, and you can do something for a long time, and you burnout is real. But for something like that, that's like the anti-burnout experience. That's yeah, this is why I do this. All right, Ernest, as I suspected we've gone way over our time limit, but I want to ask you. So now that you've been doing this for a long time, now that you've learned from a complete stranger that you can still learn more about yourself as well as the incredible, whatever, Emmy nominated award projects that you've done, what is, when you think about your legacy, what do you hope people would feel when they watch something you create? Is there something that you would want to inspire people to think about or feel or react to in your work? Nothing more than I hope I made your day a little better. Excellent. Excellent. Well, Ernest, it was a pleasure having you on. I'm going to follow you on your social platforms. I'd love to see more of your work, and I want you to have a great day. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to Next Act with Jeff Orenstein. Follow, subscribe, and stay connected to your favorite socials at www.nexttackpodcast.com. Keep chasing your next act. The best is yet to come.