Jeff Ornstein 0:02

Hi everyone and welcome to Next Act with Jeff Orenstein. I am Jeff, and on this show we celebrate people on the cusp of greatness. Those building on past successes in some of the curious and inventive and sometimes unexpected ways they have achieved those and stepping into moments that could define their legacy. We'll talk about current projects, lessons learned, and the extraordinary opportunities ahead. So the best is yet to come. Today's guest is Paul Sinicor, award-winning CSA and Television Academy casting director, producer, and director with nearly 30 years in the entertainment industry. From casting Sony and Columbia Pictures, Clicker, and the Netflix reboot of Unsolved Mysteries, to building his own boutique company, Paul is stepping into his next act as a true hyphenate, shaping stories not just through casting, but through directing, writing, and producing.

Paul Sinacore 0:54

Welcome to the show. Jeff, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. And wow, what a mouthful there. I didn't know I did that much.

Jeff Ornstein 1:03

No, it's impressive. And you're just the kind of guest that we're we're looking to have on here that has had a variety of experiences that have enriched them as a professional and also got them thinking about other avenues that they might pursue because of those experiences. And your experience, I think, as a casting director, I think will be particular interest to the performers that are listening, especially because some of the impetus that we want to instill in people is it's never too late. That's right. You can always pursue this. And some people say, It's too late. Can I do this? And it's all about the support you have, the confidence you have, and like what's on the other side. Well, what's on the other side? It's just another another human being. So it's interesting for people to hear, like for the performers, you're on the other side. So what's it all about, Alfie? Like, you know, where is it? Right, right. So you've been doing this for 30 years. So that you that makes you a real veteran. Yes. But you were a drummer and an actor. Was that in the beginnings of your career?

Paul Sinacore 2:01

Yes, yes. Uh, you know, as a young man, I came from Fort Lauderdale to Los Angeles with my friends, uh, my bandmates, uh, in a band called East of Gideon. We had a record deal here in uh came in 89, got a record deal in 1991 with JRS Records. And, you know, we were playing with wonderful bands uh on tour with Nirvana, opening for them. We had great bands that are legends now opening for us in Hollywood, such as Rage Against the Machine, you know, uh Tool, things like that. So it was a wonderful heyday. We had Lenny Kravitz uh playing with us at the whiskey on stage, you know. So it was just a wonderful time. And um, you know, so I I lived that dream, chasing uh the rock star dream, and I still play drums professionally in the blues and country circuit because it's uh it's a passion, right? And that I think that's what you'll find here is the underlying themes of passion. You have to have passion for something, you know, love what you do, and you won't work a day in your life. Exactly. And you know, around the end of that uh run as far as the band, and then I had other bands, but my AR person, Beth Hollander was her name, she um she said, you have such a great personality, you should become an actor. Why don't you do that? So I went in for a few auditions, and that's where I got my start. I became a SAG actor very quickly in uh 1996. So a lot of my experience comes from being on set. I had the great fortune of being placed next to star talent, A-list talent, and a lot of the things. I did a lot of background work out of the gate, a lot of feature stuff because of my look at the time. And I learned production and filmmaking from that aspect, television production from that aspect, multicam from that aspect. And I'm a lifelong learner, and I pay very close attention to the masters that are around me. So that's been my fortune in my learning curve. So it's a it's a street education, if you will. I'm not a trained uh theatrical actor by any means. I'm an artist, I'm a natural talent in that way. And that's what I recognize in many people as a casting director today is the natural gift of talent, right? You can train to become an actor, but some people are gifted at it naturally. So there is a degree of separation there. Uh so my journey, yeah, and pivots of the next act was just that being an actor. And then, you know, did many things. Um, I was flipping houses, I got my real estate license, I was trying to sell stuff. And then I, you know, got into academics and I went back to UCLA in my uh 40s, you know, as a non-traditional student and received degrees in psychology and anthropology there, and did not intend to be a casting director in any way, shape, or form, but uh was going to grad school to study uh the killing cove in Japan and Taiji, which was the intersection of like uh Japanese uh fishermen and um extreme activists at the time. And I was doing research on empathy. I'm very sensitive as a human being and in touch, and that's a wonderful thing for an actor as well, right? This idea of feeling and uh and and and reading the room, reading others, and understanding that at the academic level. So I was going to USC to do that, but needed money. And um, and then I got brought into a big casting company to kind of run that in my 40s, and I did that for five years or so, and then started my own company as a casting director, Paul Cinecore Casting. And, you know, from there I made my way um, you know, to the television academy and CSA and a lot of screen credits and producing films and things like that. So a lot of next acts, if you will, in my journey, and it's always been a pivot uh and adaptation in the moment because I need all of them to really pay the bills, if you will, right? Survival is about that. Right. And so today, you know, at 57 years old, it's the aggregate of all of my life experience, which is incredibly valuable for actors for anything that you do in life, right? That's the one thing that you can't teach in uh film school, right? Is life experiences, the ups and downs, how to do things the right way, the wrong way to do things, right? What not to do, you know, all the trials and tribulations of the journey. And, you know, as we get towards this aspect now of the next act is going to be uh directing, you know. So that's that's where I'm headed is directing, writing, directing. And I've produced a few things and I've cast quite a bit of stuff as well, and serendipitously have acted in a few for my director friends that have wanted me in roles, such as Clickka that you mentioned earlier. Right. That was amazing, you know, Sony Columbia Pictures release that's now streaming on Netflix, and you know, as the casting director on that, and then we had a fallout at the end, and I ended up stepping into a role, you know, by the request of the director. Uh so I have that capability, and I still, you know, I don't really pursue acting. It's not where I make my living, but it is a passion, much like playing the drums. And um, you know, as we get towards talking about how difficult it is, right? Uh yeah, I think you prefaced about the room, you know, how I the man on the other side or the woman on the other side of uh of that process. Yeah, we can demystify that. And um, and also know that, you know, from the production standpoint, you know, I level the playing field, understanding acting and understanding producing what is required there, the difficulties of it, you know, a film family coming together to uh it's a mirac it takes a miracle to make a film or an episode, uh, any anything that you're doing, a commercial, and an amazing team of crew, and uh, you know, above the line folks and below the line folks, and uh production assistants, everyone is so valuable and important, and to be able to recognize what everyone contributes to what we finally see on the screen or on our television at the end of the day, that is magic. And that is uh, you know, you have to have a real passion for that, and an easy thing to do, but you always want to chase your dream and do what you want to do, right?

Jeff Ornstein 7:53

You were like going in a very fast pace in a lot of different directions and just being a sponge. You were a sponge for knowledge, a sponge for academia, a sponge for um some of the different crafts associated with the entertainment industry. So, and you know, when I started studying at Stella Adler, they were always drilling into our head, stay in your lane, stay in your lane. You know, don't come there and expect them to ask you your opinion on how to direct or rewrite a script, just stay in your lane as an actor. But it seems to me like you're was your mind percolating when you were acting or when you were doing other parts of whatever you were asked to do. It sounds like people ask you to step in frequently. That's casting was something that you know you wanted to sink your teeth into a little bit because it's really an art. A well-cast piece is unbelievable. Unbelievable. So, how did you figure out you could do casting well?

Paul Sinacore 8:46

That's interesting. When I began casting, I was doing, you know, person-centered ethnographic interviewing for this casting company. And um, you know, some of the directors I was working with was like Errol Morris, right? And he was doing uh research on it was called the List. I was doing interviews on people that were on the organ donor waiting list, right? And uh it's something he never released, but the research is intense. So my specialty coming out of you know social psychology and cultural psychological anthropology and my research, that is one of the skills that I learned at UCLA, ethnographic centered interviewing. So that's where it began. I've always been a people person and um, you know, gregarious in that sense as a drummer and trying to be a rock star and things of that nature and always being on that side of performance. But this is a different take on it, and I think that's where I found my skill set and passion for it. Like I said, going into that, being a casting director was not something that was on the radar at all. But I'm naturally built for it in that way. So that's that's what it was. Um, left brain, right brain, right? The creative ability to be able to connect with people, you know, and get them to open up to me in this process. And then from the performer side, the sensitivity side of that, being interviewed, understanding what it is that you know they want to express and what the needs of the client are in the direction of questioning and finding the answers that we're looking for or the information that we're looking for. And then just the process itself, just a wonderful way for me to engage with people, which is what I love to do. And then, you know, this idea of providing opportunity, discovering talent. So that's really been the passion that I really excel at now. And I've discovered wonderful young talent, like you know, Quinn Awny, who's a wonderful young actress. You know, we discovered her she was age uh eight for a film that we were doing and shows the Legion of Exorcists and Robert the Doll. Now she's working, you know, with Nicole Kidman. So it's just this amazing crossroads to be at to have find somebody or be being able to see that, right? I don't think everybody has the ability to see talent and understand what that is, much less nurture and be in a position to get them to take that next step, right? The baby steps of life, the stepping stones that an actor needs in their career, right? So that's where it all ties together. So it's not just one single thing, Jeff, of you know, uh, how do you know that you're good at being a casting director? I think it's it's the individual, it's the life experience, it's um the mindset and how you connect with people, right? Your social expertise, if you will, you know.

Jeff Ornstein 11:30

You powwow like with the lighter, the director, and say, you know, for these characters, can you share with me what the essence of the person is you're looking for? Or are you drawing from their input also, or are you envisioning Sally Joe and Bob, you know, in your own brain and how they might come together? How does that work?

Paul Sinacore 11:49

Yeah, absolutely 100%. My job here is to help others realize and uh their vision, right? So, yes, a lot of pow wowing about who the character is, who they want them to be, what a prototype of that uh actor model that they you know, everybody yeah, yeah, I need a guy like Brad Pitt in this role. You know, okay, well, we're not gonna get Brad, but you know, who can we find? I understand what you're saying, right? Who do we discover that that that's uh got that sort of right, right?

Jeff Ornstein 12:20

Right. So, but yes, when it's right, it's like you know, a symphony when all the all the instruments come together, it's just perfect. You know, and I was thinking, I, you know, I I heard about how for Mean Girls Lindsay Lohan and uh Rachel McAdams were cast in their opposite roles, and what a different movie it would have been had they, you know, Lindsay been the bad girl and Rachel Admonds been the innocent girl, or Wal Julia and William Hurt in Kiss of the Spider Woman. My understanding is those two that they were cast and then they flipped the roles, and we can't even imagine the movie anyway the but the way it was eventually released. Right.

Paul Sinacore 12:57

Absolutely. You know, that's the chemistry of casting. Sometimes someone will come in to read for one thing, and you're like, oh, they are actually perfect for the opposite of that, as you're seeing there. And you know, once you see something as an audience, I mean the finished product, right? You're mapped on to that. It's hard to see anyone else in the role if you look at some of the possible castings of great film. Uh-huh.

Jeff Ornstein 13:21

So the Academy Awards finally created a category for casting. I mean, is it just a year or two ago? Now that they're fantastic. So do you see yourself up on that stage?

Paul Sinacore 13:31

Yeah, it was a, you know, what an accomplishment, what a recognition, and to shine a spotlight on casting directors. My CS colleagues couldn't be more proud. That was over, it's longer than a decade in the efforts to get that category added to the Academy Awards. Um, it was the first year, so this is the inaugural class of casting directors, and what an amazing cross-section of casting directors that we had, and just great films as well. Those castings, uh, the ensembles they put together, absolutely tremendous. I did have the pleasure of, you know, hanging out with my CSA colleagues uh and watching that together. We celebrated uh that moment. You know, casting directors are such a vital part of um the creative vision. They are creatives as well. And as you're saying, pulling ensembles together or being able to pivot and realizing the vision of the director or the client, that that takes a ton of work. That's and it's a special skill that everyone has honed over the years, especially uh the greats. So, you know, kudos to them. I they're all role models to me, you know. Uh some of them are mentors, and I get a chance to engage with them and speak with them about castings and special events and things like that. Yes, and that would be a wonderful aspiration and recognition to be up for an Academy Award in any way, shape, or form. I was up for an Artios Award, nominated for Unsolved Mysteries, and that, you know, didn't win that. But uh just the nomination is is the win. That's that's and you know, much like acting, you know, the callback is the win, you know, of of of the craft, you know, and then the booking is the cherry on top. So, you know, to be recognized by your peers in any way, shape, or form is absolutely such an honor.

Jeff Ornstein 15:17

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, because there's a lot of the people out there doing it, and there are five nominees or whatever. But I want to talk to you about that audio because it was for, and I want to say it properly, unscripted casting. So immediately in my mind, it went to reality TV. But it's not necessarily just reality TV. Right. It is unsolved mysteries or when you're telling us a nonfiction story fictitiously.

Paul Sinacore 15:40

Right, right. So they're scripted and unscripted, right? Script is scripted, so you're following the script. Unscripted and reality is uh, although some of it is scripted. Um, unscripted is yeah, it's just what is happening, right? And then there's the two categories, structured and unstructured, right? So unstructured is more of the loose reality show where we're not sure what may happen. And then structured is something like unsolved mysteries that we have a structure that we follow in the storytelling, right? It's not scripted because a lot of these are interviews of the real people. And um, you know, we're doing recreation casting, which is probably one of the most difficult types of casting to do instead of you know casting a role, you're casting to bring this real life person to life, right? And in many cases, they're not even alive anymore in in some of these things, right? So that that's the challenge of that, and um, and doing it justice and um respectfully. But yeah, those are the differences in the categories. So unsolved was unscripted, structured for that. And one of the wonderful things about casting that is breaking some of those mysteries, right? So unsolved mysteries that have been solved, where the work that we've done over the five volumes on Netflix, there are several cases where we've actually, you know, discovered or found or solved the missing person case or who the unidentified person was and brought closure to the families and the communities surrounding that. So there's a wonderful sense of community there as well, and helping others, right? Trying to do something of good service uh for the public good, right? You're such a people person.

Jeff Ornstein 17:24

It's in everything you do, it comes across. Tell me, I want to talk a little bit about Paul Sinacor casting. Where are you located?

Paul Sinacore 17:31

Um in Los Angeles, uh Tahanga specifically, up by Pasadena. I'm guessing I'm in my fifth year now.

Jeff Ornstein 17:37

Congratulations.

Paul Sinacore 17:38

It's just been an incredible journey. Again, an unexpected one. One of my next acts was that. And from this base, if you will, is where all the hyphenate action comes from, right? So uh I like to to plug in wherever I'm helpful into a production, right? And kind of be able to talk and troubleshoot and you know, forward thinking for the success of of projects, right? That's the goal is to make sure we elevate and we do the best that we can for what we're working within, you know.

Jeff Ornstein 18:08

So are you I I would imagine you're chasing productions or producers or people wanting to make from or other kinds of artistic undertakings that you may be uh casting for, but you also are you trying to create a stable, like you know, trying to get like your eight to thirteen year olds and minority actors and character actors, and I mean, do you do you try to build that? Do you have a stable or is it fresh every time?

Paul Sinacore 18:36

It's fresh every time, of course, because I am close with a lot of my actor colleagues in casting in the process. Naturally, I I come to know them. I go to see them perform. I coach a lot of talent in LA and New York as well, so I get to know them personally. Unlike central casting, no, I don't have a stable of actors or a database of actors that we can just choose from. Each casting is a fresh approach uh to that casting, specific to the client's needs, and we take it from there, right? Naturally, we do see the same people from time to time, right? Because uh they fit the roles and and um you know the the cream rises to the surface, as they say, right? The creme de la creme.

Jeff Ornstein 19:20

I totally get it. Okay, so you're five years into postcinekor casting, and you've done so many things between your academic studies and your world travels and your philanthropical or uh and and and helping the world be a better place, endeavors, and then you're acting and you're performing. Where are you in five years, Paul?

Paul Sinacore 19:37

Five years, I would like to be directing more, and naturally, you know, casting is the mainstay. And acting is like I said at the beginning, it's more serendipitous. I don't pursue acting, you know, as an actor. I try to compete with with actors, especially in castings, although I've been in things that I've uh cast, not by choice. But I'm loving what I do in all phases. So just recently uh worked on a project called The Long Dark Climb, a wonderful short film proof of concept with uh Colin Costello, a wonderful award-winning writer, uh director. And that ensemble cast was is is so special and elevated for the production budget that we had, and a four-day shoot was also a producer on that as well. And um, that's what I love to do, you know. So it's producing, it's casting, it's writing and directing when I have the opportunity, it's coaching talent. You know, I'm working on a book as well to kind of demystify the process you talked about at the beginning. What's it like to be on the other side of the room? What is the survival mode for the actor? When do you say when? When do you keep chasing the dream? You know, what can you do about it? And I always love to tell actors, right, it's either about you or it's not about you, right? So what that is is essentially you know, you do what you do and you do what you do well. And if you're not booked for something, it's not necessarily something about you, right, right, that you could have done differently. So I'm trying to kind of demystify that process in a in a book I'm working on. And it is the lifelong experience of being on that side of it and then understanding clients, you know, being in a commercial casting grinder for years, understanding what producers and clients want. And then, you know, the sensitivity of actors, that they don't walk out of the room feeling like I should have done something better or different, or that they have some sort of say in what a decision is. And also, just to clarify, casting directors don't make decisions on casting either. What they do is present opportunity to talent and present talent to clients, directors, right? And then those people make the decisions ultimately. But you know, where what we do is facilitate opportunity, right? And you still have to walk through the door, it has to be about you, or it's not about you, right? And that's something that is not personal to the actor, and that's trying to demystify that for the actor.

Jeff Ornstein 22:07

But you have uh maintained an em it's very clear, you have an incredibly positive attitude about it, and you've taken on all these different responsibilities with gusto, and you and like you say, 57, you're still passionate about them, and that's so important to enjoy what you do. It is a key component to being successful, and it can because this is next act, and these are people trying to step into their next act, and there's courageousness and there's opportunity, and there's financial. There are so many different things that get mixed into the pot and how and when and why, and should I, should I not? But you've actually done quite a lot of um soul searching in different kinds of arenas, and obviously to great success. So is there one lesson that you learned the hard way that you could share with people that are thinking about maybe taking this jump?

Paul Sinacore 22:57

Yes, absolutely. I mean, much like life, lots of ups and downs. If if we're talking specifically about actors, it's the difference that a day makes. And at the end of the day, you are who you are and you do what you do, and you should do that with passion. Right. And the moment of change, right, the pivot or success, it could be a day away, right? It's the difference that day makes as long as you're pursuing your passion and your dream. Yes, life is challenging. Being an actor is challenging, auditioning is difficult, productions are difficult, writing and directing, incredibly difficult. Finding funding, distribution, things like that, difficult, right? Legal aspects of life, very difficult, right? So we have all of these challenges, and a lot of that part of life can get on you heavily enough that you want to quit. And my advice is to push through that because it's only it's it's the diamond, right? You have a piece of coal and all the pressure makes the diamond. You have to be that, and you have to have that sort of resiliency in life in general, and especially in the in this industry, in any phase of the entertainment industry. You have to be tremendously flexible, right, right, and malleable, and you have to be able to take it, right? It's a very difficult business, and you should not take anything personally, find that within yourself. You must pursue what you love to do and your dream, and it's the difference that a day will make in success, right? But you have to keep going in order to succeed, right? Right.

Jeff Ornstein 24:28

That's exactly right. Because you know what? All those things are difficult, but you know what's also difficult? Stagnation. That's difficult. So that's right. I have to wrap this up. I am going to add you to all my search engines so I can always keep in touch on top of what you're doing because I suspect everything will be dynamic, and I can't wait to see 'em. Thanks for tuning in to Next Act with Jeff Orenstein. Follow, subscribe, and stay connected to your favorite socials at www.nextackpodcast.com. Keep chasing your next act. The best is yet to come.