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Jeff Ornstein: Hi everyone, and welcome to Next Act with Jeff Ornstein. I am Jeff...

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Jeff Ornstein: and on this show we celebrate people on the cusp of greatness. Those building on past successes and some of the curious and inventive and sometimes unexpected ways they have achieved those, and stepping into moments that could define their legacy. We'll talk about current projects, lessons learned, and the extraordinary opportunities ahead.

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Jeff Ornstein: So the best is yet to come.

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Jeff Ornstein: Lukas Hassel is an award winning actor, writer and filmmaker based in New York City. He's recurred on TV hits like The Blacklist and Blue Bloods. Created multiple award winning short films, and wrote and starred in feature film House of Abraham. Today, we dive into his journey across acting, writing and directing in film and television. I love that that's exactly the kind of person we want on the show, this multi-faceted career professional.

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Jeff Ornstein: So welcome and thanks for joining.

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Lukas Hassel: Well, thanks for having me. Yeah, this is interesting stuff for sure.

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Jeff Ornstein: So I understand you started in your studies to be an actor.

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Lukas Hassel: Correct? Right. Yeah. So I went to Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland for acting. And so that was and still is really my sort of main lane, so to speak. But, you know, the older I get, the less interesting it is to constantly hand my power away to others and sort of do a casting and hope you got it. So writing was the first step, and taking some of that power back and then directing what I write is then the ultimate power, sort of doing something with your community and your team and sort of retain the control over that. So, that's where I'm sort of gravitating towards. But acting is definitely still my my first lane.

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Jeff Ornstein: Right. Well, you certainly took the power back because he won some significant awards. What are you writing in your directing. So you're definitely showing. Yeah, I'll stay in my lane when I'm acting, but when I get out of my lane, there's no stopping me, so that's great. All right, so really want to pick your brain a little bit about your love of the supernatural and sci fi, and especially with the crazy success lately of Stranger Things. I might want to pick your brains a little bit about that. Do you think? But also as a creator of that kind of genre and craft, you know how the brain works. I mean, it's so layered and complex. So I guess to start, I mean, from a kid, were you always interested in sci fi and horror and that kind of film to watch and then then to eventually create?

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Lukas Hassel: Well, I think, you know, as a kid, I think we, we gravitate towards things that excite as a scare us and so forth. And so, yes, for sure, those genres are very interesting. But I feel at the core of any of these genres is good drama. If you don't have a good drama and good characters, then it doesn't matter what genre you gussy it up in, so to speak. So essentially I think everything is drama, but then you can put it in space or you can put in a supernatural monster, or you can put it in different forces. And the benefits of those genres for me have been that you can sort of push the natural boundaries a little bit. You can sort of, if you have a thematic that you're looking to explore in the horror world and in the sci fi world, it's a little easier to sort of manufacture unusual situations to highlight that. And so I think that's where horror and sci fi really can play into a great narrative, because you can sort of throw the rulebook out the window. And as long as the rules you come up with makes sense in the world is you've created.

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Jeff Ornstein: Right. So to that just a little bit about Stranger Things. I mean, I think it's the kind of series, at least for me, I would have to watch it five times to understand it. There is so many worlds going on and and the cast, which is quite a large ensemble, then separates into groups and, you know, I don't know, maybe I'm just old, but I have trouble keeping up with who's where and what's going on. Like you said, you know that the ability to separate out and create your own rules of engagement, because it is sci fi, is very true in that respect. So there are there are films like that that are very complex. And then there's films like I just saw a special about the others with Nicole Kidman.

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Lukas Hassel: Yeah, a great one of the best ghost stories ever told.

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Jeff Ornstein: Right. And it's so simplicity. And at the height of slasher movies, not a drop of blood. Absolutely and completely. You know, as this presentation gave, it changed the face of horror. So where do you fall in between the subtlety and the other? You know, gone with the viewer's terror that's almost sometimes self-inflicted, what they're creating. And then the a Duffer Brothers do.

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Lukas Hassel: Well, I think, you know, I think it falls back to sort of what it is you're trying to explore what you're trying to say, right? Stranger things is an interesting beast because it's really a massive ensemble piece. So it's a jigsaw puzzle of characters and storylines, and you would need a great showrunner and a great sort of room full of writers to make that happen. Well, and then you have someone like the others where it's much more psychological horror, really, as opposed to slasher y, as you said, not a drop of blood. And for me personally, that scares me more than anything else. Human nature scares me more than an ax hitting somebody over the head, which I would have seen on on screen a million different times. So personally, I'm just attracted to character driven horror, and that often means psychological horror, because I find that the scariest monsters of all is what we're able to do as human beings, as opposed to always superimpose, you know, a special monster or an outside force or aliens or whatever. Sometimes it's just what we're really capable of that frightens me the most personally.

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Jeff Ornstein: Were you a storyteller and a writer from early on, or is it something you learned from being an actor?

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Lukas Hassel: Well, I'm it's hard to say because I think it is connected. I think as an actor you are if you're doing it right, you are a storyteller, right? But it wasn't really until I was sort of in productions and I realized, oh, I would have I think I would have written it that way. I wonder why the character isn't making this turn, or how come they're not developing that aspect of this character could make it more layered. When I started having those thoughts on set, I realized I was probably ready to write something. And then that also fed into directing because I was like, why are they not putting the camera right here? Or how come they're staying in this scene that should have been cut, you know, two minutes ago is too long. Let's talk about editing. And so once I started having those realizations and various productions, I thought, okay, maybe I'm ready to try this out. And like with any artistry, you got to, you know, it's it's a lot of hard work. You start out and you fail and you share it with people that are better than yourself. And then you get feedback and you learn and you keep trying to improve your, your craft.

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Jeff Ornstein: Well, you obviously improved it. I mean, forgive me because I know you've won awards as a writer and as a director, and I know that you've written and directed some of your work and creating here. Have you starred as well as? Yes. No.

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Lukas Hassel: Okay. Let's try. I know, I know exactly exactly.

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Jeff Ornstein: What was that like? You know, when you're writing for a character that you, you, you're going to inhabit and then also for a set of eyes, it's going to capture that for your viewer. I mean, that's a lot of hats to wear.

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Lukas Hassel: But it is interesting because I think the saving grace there is that I wrote it. So if I also play, say, the main character, I know exactly what my subtext is. I know exactly what's going on in my character's head on all the time. So it's almost easier. It's a shortcut in a certain way. Rather than try to get an actor into my head to then portray what I'm trying to get across. So in that sense, it's easy. But of course, you have to figure out different tricks of the trade to make that work. I work with, the DPS, I work with, I would make sure that we are telling the same story, that we are shooting the same movie, and the frame that I want is what we're filming on. So once I'm in the scene, I can sort of put my director's hat aside and focus on the acting, because I think one of the main issues with writing and acting and directing is that people forget to sort of take the various hats off, and it sort of behooves and neither one of these categories I do if I'm in a scene thinking as a director, but I'm in it as an actor, I'm not going to do myself any favors right. And likewise vice versa. So it's important to sort of make sure you take your time if you're going to be in your own piece. Like I would say to my DP, sometimes, listen, when I yell action, just press the button and trust me, I'll start when I'm ready. I've got to find where I need to be, as opposed to feeling the pressure of starting straight away when I've just said action and now I'm an actor. Usually I would take, you know, maybe seconds, maybe 40s of just getting my head into where I need to be, and then I'll start and we can edit it out after. Right. So there are different, different tricks of the trade, right?

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Jeff Ornstein: Yeah. To that point, I just saw another special about the Green Mile and which is considered a very powerful, sci fi or thriller. And all of the characters wrote their own backstories in order to bring a history to the character, you know, from the time the curtain opens, and that I also added a great dimension because they didn't have to have a writer tell them their backstory. They created it for themselves. So perhaps that was a great way to inhabit the character earlier.

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Lukas Hassel: So I think that's a really important thing. I mean, I said I came from theater originally, right? And I think where theater can feed into sort of TV and film is that you need to be able to build your character. And so this issue that you just mentioned with Green Mile, that people can create their own backstories, I think is crucial for, for any actor. And it happens probably more in, in theater just because there's more time in rehearsals and so forth that you can really build up that story. And sometimes with CBN film, you just don't always have that luxury. Right. So but I think it is up to each actor to make sure that you know exactly who you are, where you came from. And that's going to influence how you respond to to people around you. You know, often I see films where people are meant to have been married 40 years, but I can tell by how they interact or their dialog that they've known each other two weeks. There's something wrong in the writing there. Right? So the different ways of making sure that we understand these people have a history and that comes from from creating a solid backstory.

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Jeff Ornstein: Right? So all of your many projects, I mean, I asked, did you have a favorite? And if you did, why was your favorite?

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Lukas Hassel: I do, actually, that's a really good question. Nobody's asked that before, but yeah, I think my very first sort of serious short film was a sci fi short film called Into the Dark Room. I built the set in my apartment with my DP on a fifth floor walk up in New York City, and shot over nine days. I had plenty of time to really shoot it and get everything I wanted out of it. And that sci fi story I still think is an incredible short film. It's definitely sort of my my lovechild. It did really well out in the festival circuit, and I think one of the reasons it's close to my heart is that it also set off this trajectory of writing and directing, which I'm on now. So I that was the first one back in 2014, and I've actually developed that into a feature, and I'm talking to some production companies about making, making that maybe my, my sort of feature, director debut. So that would be very cool.

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Jeff Ornstein: Well, I had a friend of mine who's a writer wrote a feature film and then he's once he did a couple shorts and he did one, you know, terrific. Well received. And then he sent me another short. And I said to him, this is not a sure this is a feature film, right? These characters, this story, this the whole pacing, this can be a feature film. So don't sell yourself short by making it a short. You're making shorts. It's great, but this is a feature. And now he's making it into a feature. So yeah.

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Lukas Hassel: No. That's amazing. I mean, sometimes shorts can be proof of concepts for that feature. Sometimes you can be part of the feature that you end up making later on sometimes. And that is really the beauty of shorts, is that sometimes with shorts, you're not beholden to a studio or to a production code, right? In terms of making the money back. Right? It's money out the window. So it's your chance to really, you know, not make any compromises go through with the vision that you have because it's about you trying something out, like like my short film right now that's on the festival circuit is a film called Up Close, which I wrote, directed and acted in. And it's almost I would call experimental because I really wasn't looking to do another short, but this notion of can I tell a story by what you don't see fascinated me. And so I wrote this film and shot it in a very different way. And so I hope you and other people out there will catch you on the festival circuit. I just won Best Horror down at Love Your Shorts in Florida, and it's just really bizarre. It's pretty much all, you know, in a close up, I suppose I could say.

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Jeff Ornstein: Well, oh no, I'll definitely be following you. So that when I'm in a town where you're in a festival, I'm going to.

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Lukas Hassel: Oh, yeah, great. Please do.

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Jeff Ornstein: So I just want to now jump in because my producers give me lots of questions. I read through them and then I say, I'm going to just let the conversation go where it goes. So when you finish your product and then you're putting it into festivals, I mean, do you have a preference for festivals or do you just say, I want to get this in front of as many eyes as possible and you submit them to, I don't even know, 20, 50, 100 festivals. How does that work?

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Lukas Hassel: It all depends on where you're at, I would say in your career and with Into the Dark, which when was my first serious short film? I just mentioned it, I submitted everywhere. I just wanted to get it out there. I wanted to get out to these festivals, see what they were like, network, meet a bunch of other people. And so I traveled a lot with that film. And then cut to the sort of the second short film, it's almost diminished return. Right? You're sort of like, well, I've already met a lot of these people now, but it's still fun to go out and you can get out and do a few more festivals for the third time around. I'm like, well, you know what? I don't really need to travel out to all of these anymore, so why am I wasting my money submitting it if I'm not going to be there to do a Q&A or to network, or whatever? So it sort of depends on where you're at with it. It also depends on what type of short film you have. If you make a very niche short film, you understand well, it's not going to appeal to a ton of people. Or if you feel like you have a hit on your hands and then why not get it out there as much as you can? So it really depends on sort of what you're after. And you build up a list of festivals that you know are great and people that you care about that really care about the filmmakers that have full houses, that have, you know, a filmmaker lounge. So the networking is always great. So those festivals I would make an attempt to go out to and then other festivals that disappoint. I would not go back to for a second time. Right. So it's all different scenarios, right?

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Jeff Ornstein: I mean, the film festival, South Central Alabama may not be the proper venue for one if you're more progressive or rattling.

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Lukas Hassel: But but just just to give a quick shout out to the smaller festivals, a lot of the smaller to medium level festivals can be almost the most helpful for a new filmmaker of sorts, because if you're in New York or L.A., most people, they are going to come to that screening and then go off somewhere else with their people, and they have people that know already, whatever, whatever. So you better meet them as much. But if you're in, you know, Tulsa, Oklahoma, to a local festival there, all the filmmakers, what else are they going to do but go to each other's screenings and you go for a hike during the day with other filmmakers. And so some of those friendships have developed from the smaller festival is actually have, had much more longevity than, than the bigger cities, the bigger festivals.

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Jeff Ornstein: And I will say that some of the founders of the smaller film festivals that I've met, I mean, this is their baby.

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Lukas Hassel: Correct?

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Jeff Ornstein: A and, you know, and they might only have 30 films or 20 films, and they treat every showing like royalty, you know, and they want to give them great introductions and great interviews afterwards and make sure everybody's meeting everybody. So you raise a very, very good point. I was surprised, though, I guess. I mean, you've sort of outlined it that a lot of this is about networking. And then of course, choosing the right venue for the network. But I just heard a statistic that film festivals only result in 5% of the films actually being sold. So it's not about the sale. It's really just about the exposure. And then again, like you meeting another producer, are you meeting two stars? And then all of a sudden that's I've had this character in my mind for 20 years. I want to write in this, this actress must perform her or something like that.

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Lukas Hassel: No, no, that's a that's a very good point. But I suspect I would suspect that the statistic you write about probably refers to like the top festivals. To a certain extent are not even festivals like the Sundance and the Tribeca's and the tiff of this world are probably more like film markets, where it's hard for an unknown film to get into that, unless you already have a production company behind you that knows somebody in the festivals. And I'm kind of get into trouble by suggesting that. But I think that's fair to say that very rarely does a completely unknown film make it into those massive festivals. So it's it's more of a film market where people are actually trying to sell their films. Whereas a lot of these other festivals, it's less about selling your film, really. A if it's a short, then never mind. But if it's a feature, it's really just to spread the word. I mean, indie film and indie features have a very tough time getting traction just because they're competing with studios. And that big budget PR is, scenarios. And so your only your best shot at getting your, your feature out there on the festival circuit is, is via just spreading that word and and word of mouth will get your will get the PR that you need right.

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Jeff Ornstein: How do you find I don't know if this is a secret or not, but I'm going to ask it anyway.

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Lukas Hassel: Go for it.

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Jeff Ornstein: How do you fund your your shorts or your feature? What if for that matter? I mean, do you have a certain cachet of patrons that you go to or how does that work?

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Lukas Hassel: Well, so it's it varies. Right. So the very first one, into the dark, I financed myself because I didn't really want to put anyone through the nonsense of what could be a disaster of a film, because I didn't know if I knew what I was doing, I didn't know what it was going to turn out to be like. So I didn't want any of that pressure. So that was my own financing. But then after that, I had my script, one at a film festival in LA called Hollywood Shorts Film Festival, and lo and behold, the prize for that festival is a production deal. So that film got produced by a, production team up in Seattle, where they sponsored everything. They got the entire crew together on locations and all that. So I was very lucky to be brought in to a production that didn't come out of my pocket. And that's how I sort of been since then, when my feature House of Abraham that just arrived at that streaming was, I developed with, with, with a partner, Lisa Belcher, who ended up directing it, but we together worked on it. I wrote the script, basically created this big feature together. And she is an incredible a producer as well as director and so she managed to raise the money for that. So I really had nothing to do with that. So I'm not really a money producer guy, so to speak. I got an executive producer credit on that film, basically because of my ability to get the scripts to wonderful actors like Lin Shaye, who's in it, and Natasha Henstridge, who's amazing, who's in it, both of whom are friends of mine, so I could get the script to them. And so sometimes when you bring cast members on board, as opposed to a set of dollars per se that can also.

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Jeff Ornstein: Achieve they're almost currency.

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Lukas Hassel: No, it's true. And I listen, I would I would sell the world for those two ladies. They're incredible human beings and incredible actors legends in their own right. So we were thrilled to have both of them.

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Jeff Ornstein: So one more time filled so that the viewers can remember this is the House of Abraham and it's dreaming now.

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Lukas Hassel: It's streaming now is a dark psychological horror. It's streaming on Apple, on Amazon Prime, on Google Play, YouTube TV. Just just today, in fact, we are selling Blu rays and DVDs for those who collect those that sale has just we just managed to get that out today with, behind the scenes, you know, commentary by myself and the director. Together we talk about we basically could talk through the whole movie if you wanted to watch that version, or you can just watch it without our nagging voices. But that's part of the DVD and Blu ray version there. So yeah. So it's been super exciting to see how this film has taken off. You know, it's a risky proposition making indie films in this day and age when so few people are going to the cinemas and streaming. Streaming services don't pay filmmakers a lot for their movies. So it's a difficult thing to actually get anything made. But we were lucky to have a limited theatrical under a rama Rama. And now we're doing really well on streaming, so fingers crossed people. Glad you like our films. Thank you.

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Jeff Ornstein: So now you know, with a fair degree of success is the chain of successes. Looking ahead, what role? What really excites you to tackle? I mean, again, either as an acting role of a writing role or directing role. Well, what is there a story that's like marinating in your brain that you keep coming back to? Once you've finished something and say, one day I'm going to get to that, is there one more there?

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Lukas Hassel: There are a couple. But it's it's the weird thing of working with sort of the artist's heart and then the business man's mind. Right? Because, I have some amazing screenplays that are dramas. So the heart is there. I know there are fabulous stories that are very character driven, is something we haven't seen before, but nobody wants to finance dramas. Right? So cut to I have the full length version of Into the Dark, the sci fi light, a script which is an amazing script. It did really well with Nichols, a big screenwriting competition, and it's pretty much ready to go. And so that one, it's just more sort of sexy and it's probably easier to raise the money for. So any of those are always simmering under the surface. And I'm talking to various people about getting those done. But with indie film the way it is right now, we'll just we'll just have to see what, what takes the fancy. It seems that only really horror makes its money back. I've heard it's some sometimes it's the most sellable because. It's by far as the most sell. But but that also means everybody's doing it. So the, the market is saturated. So you may still you may have a lottery ticket for there's so many horror films out there. And although they may not be quality horror films, who knows, they still might drown out your film that you think is great. So it's just something you have to sort of figure things out. And sci fi is more expensive, but might get attention because not that many people are doing it for that reason. So there's a lot of sort of figuring out heart and head as to what makes sense for the next project.

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Jeff Ornstein: You said that dramas are hard to sell. I mean, other than taking sci fi and on horror out of it, are comedies hard to sell?

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Lukas Hassel: I would say yes, just because for any of those projects to take off that isn't necessarily horror or sci fi. You really need celebrities. You need names in there to get anyone's attention for those right, and see if you can get Ryan Gosling and Emma Stone for your drama. Well, yeah, somebody might actually make that right. But how do you get the script in their hands when you have a whole sort of level of, of, of agencies and managers that will not give the script to these people because they're like, don't do drama, right, or whatever it is. So, so it's all about how do you manage to get eyes on it. And in horror, you can actually do something without massive names, right? Because it's the premise or the tone of it that could sell that piece.

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Jeff Ornstein: Okay, Lucas, it's been a delight speaking with you, learning about your career, so many fantastic accomplishments, and, our viewers will be able to follow you. I'm sure you're on Instagram or.

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Lukas Hassel: Absolutely.

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Jeff Ornstein: And catch up and see some of these tremendous works that you've been developing.

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Lukas Hassel: Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be on.

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Jeff Ornstein: Thanks for tuning in to next week with Jeff Orenstein. Follow, subscribe and stay connected to your favorite socials

00:22:32:20 - 00:22:40:07
Jeff Ornstein: at next podcast.com. Keep chasing your next act. The best is yet to come.